What if the meeting is just a meeting on critique of major government policies among say youngpap members?

then u should be a young pap member. a KFC club meeting should not involve macdonald club members

What if the meeting is just one held to re-examine right or wrong of policies like ERP or rising costs of living or doing business or HDB's claim of subsidy of low-cost housing.

Now who r the people in the meeting ? Someone had to make decisions and not everyone like them. If everybody can attend these meeting then no decisions can ever be made

It is only when there is something to hide the leaders dare not face the public scrutiny like I am asking.

Well, they do declare the decision of ERP rate and subsidy of low cost housing publicly. But when the relevant department has their meeting, i don't see why they have to ask any body interested to join.

I have also written to youngpap and quite a number of MPs asking for invitation to take part in PAP internal policy debates.

If PAP is so good and so open and accountable, why be afraid to invite me to do so?

Just wanted to bring out tis point... when the CO's of the army have a meeting, they do not ask the cook and the clerk to attend as well. This is because there may be some secrets tat is best kept confidential. When the CEO of a company have a meeting, they do not allow all shareholders, like a minor shareholder, to attend all the meeting too. Tis is because it is time consuming, potentially disrupting and decisions cannot be made.

Is it because they r afraid of u ? I think in a meeting, it is logical for the relevant people to attend while the irrelevant people not to attend.

 The previous debate in 2005 certainly proved that 'stupid-is-not-necessarily-smart.

The question - "Did Singaporeans asked for fuel subsidy ?" -  was not about whether the TS is a Singaporean.

Did I insult or demean u in any way in tis thread ? No. So lets keep it tat way.

The thread starter wanted fuel subsidy and tat is his intention.

Tax is to take money from the people.

Subsidy to from the government to help absorb part of the bill to the people.

Tat is technically correct however other than the derivative the bottomline is the same.

Subsidy uses money from the budget. Less tax uses money from the budget.

How in your brilliant "smart-stupidity" do you intend to convince anyone that without taking the money from the people - {i.e. no tax} - the government has subsidised fuel ?

If they do not tax fuel, the government is already getting their surplus tax revenue on every big and small economic activities through an all enveloping 7% GST.

Can you confirm that the 7% GST is also levied on the fuel that car owners purchase in Singapore - which means that the 7% GST is applied onto a fuel sales price that has a Government fuel tax already in it ?

u felt singapore tax u too much. Tat is a point tat can be argue but we leave it out of the picture first.

How do you intend to distribute wealth, when the poor is also made to pay for the fuel taxes that a rich businessman pays - by passing it into the costs of the goods sold to the poor ?

Well, first thing is it helps people taking public transport (often the poorer people) since they uses less fuel. The people with their cars pay more, people with cars with bigger cc pays more and people with sports car will be worst off. It encourage people to use public transport which uses less fuel.

Industries uses a lot of fuel or the most fuel and they will pass it down to consumer who buys then. But in todays competitive market, they will also try to cut down on wastage and fuel as well and tis is a good sign. On the consumer side, u really have to pay for the increase price of goods. However u really uses tis good. It is better than me, not using tis good at all and subsidised your spending by giving fuel incentives.

 

Did Singaporean suggest that fuel should be subsidised ?

Or was it not a subject of ridicule that this government will try to convince us that removing tax on fuel is a subsidy ?

Are we losing focus in this thread ?

 

First, the title of the thread write "should fuel be subsidised". So if u ask me did singaporean suggest tat fuel be subsidised, the problem will be linked whether is the thread starter a singaporean or not in the first place.

About removing tax from fuel, will it not become the same argument and scenario whereby gov give money to subsidised fuel ? If they do not tax fuel, they have to tax somewhere else. So is taxing fuel a good way of distributing wealth ?

of course fuel should not be subsidised because otherwise it is everybody paying for the people who uses fuel the most and tis encourage waste. If there is no subsidy, then it is everybody paying for wat they use which is fair.

Face it, oil price is increasing and nobody in tis world is gonna be influential enough to stop it. If u can stop it, u will probably win nobel prize or becoming the most outstanding politician/banker/scientist in tis world.

In a way, it makes people conscious they r bruning too much fuel and reduce fuel usage which may be a good thing for global warming.

For your second lame attempt to absolve him, if you hear the recording, it's hardly irrelevant, as he was just elaborating his plight to LKY showing the courts how evil he was.

Lets get tis straight... the case is about him slandering LKY and instead of defending himself by claiming he did not slander, he tell people how evil LKY is. And u say tat is relevant ? 

I think the joke is, his statement had confessed he did slander LKY, and he did it for personal reason. (Because he is an evil person and his kids r having a tough time because of it)

When he snigger it can means 3 things

Some people feel tat he is laughing at the plight of his children and LKY is cruel. Some examples used r people laughing at the earthquake victims or rapist laughing at theier raped victims

Second, it can also mean he is laughing at him for bringing out irrelevant points out. Example is a rapist telling the court he has 3 children and a witness snigger at the situation since it is a irony tat since he know he has 3 children, why does he still go and rape women.

Thirdly, he simply think of some old jokes in his mind and he laugh at it

Personally, since we r not him, it is groundless and meaningless to pretend to be him, then assume something out of it then blame it on him. Tis is utterly meaningless.

real facts dont come from wikipedia

There are some truth from wikipedia. U can always verify the articles with other online sites as well as the references it had provided

That's why communism doesn't work.

I think the problem of the recent spate of events is because of seperatists and human rights, not because of watever political system one is experiencing. Is democracy the mircale pill tat can solve all society problems ? This is very debatable. Should china become democractic suddenly ? I think tis is a recipe for doom since there r parts of china tat is not educated and developed long enough. If his political system is wrong, then china wouldn't even become powerful, or bringing the most people from poverty within a short time, or developing or even beating other countries in hosting the olympics.

BUT,in Tiananmen incident,does those Chinese students n workers obtain any heavy weapons like Tanks or gunnery?NO,they are just a bunch of protestors trying to convey their views of a more democratic n transparent policy,other than Communist style of dictatorship.Those protestors dont have any weapon on hands.And they were run over by Communist soldiers with guns n tanks.You think it is right for those Communist Pig government to do that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29

If u look onto the wiki above, british army also conduct their own "Tiananmen incident" by shooting on unarmed protesters and driving their vehicle over them. 6 of them r not even adults.

It is not right for the government to do all tis, but government have to do something when they face riots and violence and seperatists.

If u talk about country turning against citizen, the whole world have its fair share

Russia & Chenchnya. Why not free chenchya as well ? The russian also use its fair share of guns and violence and even kill its own people who r hostages as well. Why not free chenchnya ?

 

In the 1970's, british also use armed interventions against its own citizen, Irish. They also use their army vehicle and kill their own people. On bloody sunday,

14 civil rights protesters were shot and killed by members of the 1st Battalion of the British Parachute Regiment during a Northen Ireland Civil RIghts Association march in the Bogside area of the city. Thirteen people, six of whom were minors, died immediately, while the death of another person 4½ months later has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. Two protesters were injured when they were run down by army vehicles. Many witnesses including bystanders and journalists testify that all those shot were unarmed. Five of those wounded were shot in the back.

...

On 30 March 1972, the British government, unwilling to grant the unionist Northern Ireland government more authoritarian special powers, and now convinced of its inability to restore order, pushed through emergency legislation that prorogued the Northern Ireland Parliament and introduced direct rule from London. In 1973 the British Government dissolved the Parliament of Northern Ireland and its government under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973.

How come British have the right to start talking about free tibet when they don't give ireland the same treatment ?

Singapore has one of the lowest income tax in the world :(

Tat means the richer is taxed lesser compared with other countries

But they do it to attract rich people to come to singapore

 

And all countries tax... because someone got to support the army, the police, the schools, the hospital, the infrastructure, the bureacracy to support law, public relations, customs, firemen, corruption bureau, prison, street lights, sewerage, garbage disposal etc

Actually those are not Americans. and those who are American terrorists ARE guilty. In the past they used to silence dissent though. Communist dissent.

They r american citizens, and they r not guilty, and they r tortured and caught for a long period of time.

Democracy is the more transparent way to run a country - every government including authoritarian ones is as inefficient. Depends on the personnel themselves. At least the people get to choose the leader that they deserve...

Democracy do have some form of transparency compared with authoritarian country. However the system of democracy is inefficient. If I am the opposition, and I have a large say in the parliament. I will oppose almost everything the president wanna change. Why ? If he cannot make any changes, it make him look bad. If he look bad, my party got a higher chance being voted. U can see tis phenomenon in a lot of countries

Furthermore, singapore is not classified as an authoritarian country. People do get to vote

 

MSK... it is really a big cock up. I think he manage to escape liao. However because he escape doesn't means singapore is gonna face a big terrorist attack...

About casino, I thought it is a cut and dried topic liao. It do bring in social ill but it also bring in wealth and tourists. Every decision there r pros and cons. Countries like malaysia, japan, british, america and korea also have casinoes. R they facing a big social problem now ? If u talk about casino, Geylang have a lot of illegal casinoes now.

If by "going easy" on traffickers means not KILLING them by hanging, then yes. Especially in the case of Nyugen, who can be rehabilitated. I am anti drugs; I am not even anti death penalty.

I am pro justice to the extent that if anyone found with drugs in their blood, they should be prosecuted. Why should the state commit MURDER on the supply side while allow the demand side go free? Who's softer on the WAR on drugs if the state lets one side of equation go free?

Lets settle the drug addicts first. The drug addicts r punished in singapore. They get to be jailed and caned if they r repeat offenders. If u think tat is not harsh enough, then do u advocate them to be hanged ?

Now comes to drug trafficker. If u ask me, they deserve the death penalty. Why ? Because it is too lucrative. If someone manage to bring in a large amount over, they have enough money not to work forever. If it meant a simple 1-2 years jail, I myself will start drug trafficking and gamble by drug trafficking. If I manage to bring over once, then I can retire. Logically, it is not a stupid choice.The deterent is not enough to deter people

Secondly, drug caused a lot of social problems. U can see drug addicts can become so desperate they become prostitute or commit serious crime such as robbery or murder. In fact, drugs really redefine the word "desperate". People do anything when they r desperate, even killing their family. Just because we want to be kind to traffickers who don't care about others, we r ruining innocent people life. Who do u want to protect ?

Wow you dont read my threads do you? Like I said it is about acquring power, democracy being the "fairer" way to doing it. It is not about who is more "efficient" in running a country. I sure miss those halycon LKY days when you can send communists and their sympathizers to jail. Back then I supported LKY.

So democracy is an inefficient way to run the country ? On the note, for democracy, lets say the future president of america (obama clinton McCain), they have to help their sponsor earn back the money they had spent on them when they r campaigning. The one with the fatter campaigning money stand at an advantage. I don't know if tis is fair or not

Does America jail its own citizens for dissent?

They do jail a lot of their citizen when they suspect they r terrorist yet they aren't.

Sure if the majority thinks that LKY is impeding Singapore's progress, we should remove him as well. If we feel that Escape Artist represents a dangerous totalitarian ideology, we should exterminate Escape Artist.

I think wat escape artist have written do make sense  

I feel tat insults without apparent reason is distracting

Do u think democractic country do not kill people ? Democracy decide Iraq is gonan be conquered and they too torture and kill wantonly as well. If one day america decide Uncle Ver Sg is a threat and proceed with eliminating him, no one is gonna help him too.

While a government can produce results at any given point in time, there are no guarantees that it will continue to do so.  In the case of the communist system, there are no guarantees that the government will not use its arbitrary powers against you one day for no good reason.  If that were to happen, what use is your Gucci bag, sports car and condo?

Democracy is also the same... Is there any guarantee tat democratic country will always produce result ? Is there any guarantee tat a democractic country will not use arbitrary force against the citizen ? When a country has civil strife, all government reacts to it, whether u r democratic or not it does not matter. Indonesia do attack East timor before. Phillipines also use force on their resistance. Sri Lanka also use force on the tamil tigers. Iraq and Afghanistan have its large share of using force to control their land as well. Thailand and its muslim south, russia with chechen British and its old problem of Ireland... there r also many examples of countries using force against its citizen who had used force.

But when china attack tibetians who use violence and want to seperate, then everybody condemn them. China behaves in a funny manner but we got to admit it is not easy to rule such a big country with so much problems.

Same thing why are you so worried about drug addicts. Drug traffickers hang and drug addicts go free. Justice? They are part of same demand and supply equation.  The laws should deter people from taking drugs. Or are you pro drugs? If drunk drivers can be prosecuted just by driving and NOT by causing accidents then drug addicts should be convicted as well.

Drug addicts do go to jail if they r repeat offenders  

Does tat make u happy now ? I think u r more pro drug ba... u wanted to go easy on drug traffickers

My mistake Singapore signed the Kyoto Protocol and when there is NO emmissions target to be met as a DEVELOPING country. I tot PAP like boast that Singapore is already a developed country.

Com'on la... the year it is signed, it is a developing country. If u boast at the wrong thing, u have to pay a price. U have too much money to burn ? Then tat is the real stupidity.

What is your obssesion with public gyms? Next I ask a foreigner if they have cheap public gyms I already quoted Australia. If not public then YMCA etc.

I think u r the one giving problems by claiming wat I had said is wrong about gyms  U go and ask the other people lor. I never went to YMCA australia before but I suspect they either do not have a lot of gym equipment or they r not free. Furthermore, they seemed to promote christianity which may not be tat attarctive to people of other faith

if everything increases price, gov expenditure also increase

Australia and Europe + Japan + Malaysia sign Kyoto Protocol. They done their part. As to trees removing smog, I want a SCIENTIFIC explanation. 

Singapore in in the kyoto protocol

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=191431

Trees do improve air quality. The explanation is already given. It is a scientific explanation.

Air quality can be improved through the use of trees, shrubs, and turf. Leaves filter the air we breathe by removing dust and other particulates. Rain then washes the pollutants to the ground. Leaves absorb carbon dioxide from the air to form carbohydrates that are used in the plant’s structure and function. In this process, leaves also absorb other air pollutants—such as ozone, carbon monoxide, and sulfur dioxide—and give off oxygen.

Not by death penalty. Why is everything so binary in your thinking -  did I mention the trafficker DON'T get punished. Just not by death penalty. I dont take drugs, almost everyone I know dont take drugs, why are you so worried that the miscreant drug addict facing responsibility for his own actions. Unless...

Why not ? Tis create a big social problem and the law should deter people from trafficking. Do u agree drugs can create a big social ill if left uncontrolled ?

Using your own logic, why r u so worried about drug trafficking ? R u a drug trafficker ? Otherwise why r u worried about them ?

Also the cheap public gym - are you referring to community centre or SAFRA. Dont tell me Singapore government subsidize personal trainer. I would also like to know the condition of their equipment and the kind of machines they have.

I am talking about the community center one. True, there is little or not personal trainer there but u can use the machine. Can u use the gym machine freely and cheaply in other countries ?

Think about this, if they had kept buffer stocks of rice for 3 months, which was purchased under the old price.

How do u know the price we r having now is not the price tat they bought 3 months ago ?

Why are prices keep increasing ?

Sad thing man... inflation and reduction in the world food supply. I heard more people r making bio fuel and global warming causing tis drop in supplies. Supply drop, demand same, then price increase

What are the governemnt doing to help ?

Nothing much can be done... win win situation like buying food from other countries, eating different rice, more frozen meat, packets eggs r already employed. it is the problem of the world... only thing is to endure till the next harvest

Going after the addicts will DECREASE the number of addicts.

If the supply is there and promoting their drugs, then they will create lots of addicts. It is already shown catching drugs traffickers reduce drug abuse problems. Almost the whole world punish traffickers than addicts

You think trees remove smog and smoke from the air, where do you come up with that fact.

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/tree_benefits.aspx

Air quality can be improved through the use of trees, shrubs, and turf. Leaves filter the air we breathe by removing dust and other particulates. Rain then washes the pollutants to the ground. Leaves absorb carbon dioxide from the air to form carbohydrates that are used in the plant’s structure and function. In this process, leaves also absorb other air pollutants—such as ozone, carbon monoxide, and sulfur dioxide—and give off oxygen.

You know what is Co2 by the way - the thing contributing to global warming and strange weather.

Sorry man, I am talking about pollution, not global warming. Global warming reduction have to be implmented by the whole world, not singapore alone

Nonsense. Do you take drugs? Drug addicts take drugs on their own free will and get themselves trapped. A long jail term will help rehabilitate them as well as starving the demand, thus also decreasing the supply.  Drug addicts dont come foward to the authorities, its usually the relatives or friends that stage intervention

if the supply is there, they will easily convince other people to try drugs. Teenagers or troubled youth r vulnerable and peer pressure can easily make them go for drugs. Own freewill does not apply to these vulnerable people.

If u just go for the addicts, then u will find more and more people taking drugs which will cause serious society problems. If u go for the supply, then drugs will remain underground and rare and society have lesser problems with it. If u look at singapore and those countries tat have a strong penalty for drugtraffickers, u will find their society have a lower drug dependency problem

Pay more for BETTER facilities. Ever heard of free market? Someone can also open budget gym also what. I pay $50 per month for gym so 6 months $300.

Most of the time gym r localised to a certain region and they have a near monopoly there. They do not have to open a budget gym. Furthermore the equipment and instructors r expensive and they r not subsidised by the gov.

Plant too many trees and you get increase in dengue fever etc. 1% is based on Singapore's electricity consumption and thus Co2 produced is much more than the trees can handle. Did Singapore sign the Kyoto Protocol?

Pollution is not about CO2 or electricity consumption. It is removing the smog and smoke from the air. Where do u based your 1% on again ? Singapore, I believe, do support protecting the environmental and is pretty vocal

LOL. 99% of motorists will disagree with you. Dont believe me run a poll.

Tis is an obvious economic phenomenon. If u increase the price, the demand drops. The ERP more or less reduce the jam on the road. If suddenly ERP is removed, do u think there will be a surge in user on tat road ?

Not by much. Maybe 1%. Not remove all the trees. Reduce the number of trees especially with the leaves that encourage mosquito breeding.

I don't know how u come out with the 1% difference but the trees make the whole environment look much better and cleaner. Maybe u like to see concrete all around u but the trees r a pleasant sight

No one force addict to take drugs. If I can decide policy, I will introduce harsh penalties for drug addicts (not death penalty). In my opinion, drug addict is as bad as drug trafficker, if not worse. But must see case by case unlike PAP (people get addicted to drugs because of some kind of illness).

it is always the policy of the law maker to catch the people who had established/supply the crime and not the people who get drawn by these crimes. The illegal gambling operator is worse than the gamblers, the person selling vcds is worse than the buyers, the person selling contraband cigerrettes is worse than the smokers, the prostitude get it worse than the customers. Similarly for drug abuse, it is the drug trafficker tat should get the heavier punishment and not the drug addict. If u remove the supply, the system collapse. As long as there is supply, there will always be demand

 IMO, drug addict r the victims and drug trafficker distribute poison to society for profit. Furthermore if u punish drug addict, then how to convince them to come to the authorities for help with the addict ? If u talk about morphine addicition for certain sickness such as terminal cancer, then they can get their hand on the drug through legal means.

oh boy u dont drive car right? ERP still jam. Pay to get stuck. Doesnt solve all problems

It is not as stuck as before and it is a good and fair revenue for tax. Tax the richer person who make use of the lesser resources more intensively

For the public gyms? Gym is not THAT expensive. Italy scenary, beaches, cuisine, women, Ferrari. To each his own as I said. Its only whether can afford or not

few hundred for a few months is incredibly expensive compared with 70 dollars for half a year here. Perhaps it is 10 times the difference in price

Italy scenary is indeed beautiful and their women r really pretty. Their healthcare is pretty good too but it takes up a large chunk of their budget. However they only have italy cuisine (they don't have much of other food unlike singapore... and u can get italian food here as well), u can get ferarri in singapore too and the beaches r so so and available only in summer. Their crime rate is notorious too and I met 3 pickpockets within 6 months there. Yeah... and napoli have a infamous mafia reputation as well as gabbage problems. They have regular strikes too and u can get a few days without anyone cleaning or public transport.

Australia have public gyms, a lot of countries have them http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2003/05/12/852351.htm

I don't know man but public gym does not mean government sponsored gym. I find from here and it seems tat a lot of these gyms cost money in australia

http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2007/04/sunday-dollarssense-paying-not-to-go-to.html

 I checked out the nearest gym and the cost was $448(australian) for 5months, which as a poor uni student i just cannot afford so i will have to make do with my 1 dumbell and machines.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=15986477&an=0&page=0

Compared to the Co2 produced by Singapore, it is insignificant. And breeds mosquitoes.

The trees do improve the air quality isn't it ? If according to wat u say, then should we remove all the trees ?

 dunno about crime rate exactly, it is increasing now. + future estimated increase. Sorry about the grammar.

it had reduced in 2007. And future estimated increase is just guessing

http://www.spf.gov.sg/stats/stats2007_overview.htm

 

Compassion? Zero. Actually he is the stupid noble guy helping his idiot brother

How about the many more lives which had been ruined by drug trafficking ?

What I am trying to say is that not ONLY these people can come with good ideas. Btw only ERP and COE (aforementioned revenue making burden to the people) is unique.

I find tat as a good way to tax the people and control car population. It solved problems

Singapore is not perfect, so is every country on this planet. No lah, dont get me wrong its a great place to stay if you are a foreigner. Same like Singaporeans in other countries. Whats your impression of Italy?

I don't think italy is a good place to stay if u r a foreigner. I prefer to stay in singapore... honest...

Survey is world's best airport service, google it

I exactly use "world's best airport service" paste it in google and get the below

http://www.worldairportawards.com/

Singapore get second ya... I did not see KL...

A lot of countries have public gyms: US, Europe, other countries. If not YMCA gyms etc. I cant tell you how much they cost but definitely much cheaper (and less facilities etc) than private gym. Why do you think only swizterland have public gyms? You a investment banker ah?

R u sure ? I have been to Italy for 6 months and in Europe there is no such thing as public gym. I heard from an Italian friend tat there r public gym in switzerland so I brought it up.

Please scientifically produce the proof that all the bright ideas originated from them and not some Ang Moh think tank they paid.

Why suddenly lumped in Ang Mo think tank into the picture ? Off hand I think CPF, ERP, COE, HDB, library IT and many other ideas tat r unique. Even if they r not unique, they r implemented successfully and r shown to be a good model to follow. But of course u will discredit everything

Can only agree with A because there is not much industries in Singapore itself that can pollute. Apart from Co2.

I think the planting of the many trees have some credit ba...

Political stability exists only when there is 1 party. And Safety in Singapore is decreasing over time and crime increases and due to increase because of casino. No such as no poverty.

First point I agree with u, but nevertheless it is indeed politically stable.

Safety in singapore is high, and whether is it decreasing with time can only be said when things happened.

So has Government of UAE etc. Thing is long run I believe other countries will reject sovereign funds except for the poorest countries.  

Singapore have it earlier than UAE though. Other country will reject sovereign fund because singapore is doing it and singapore always make wrong policy right ?

Yes. Their "good ideas and policies" are not unique. And they impose unnessary burdens to the citizens.

I just care if the idea is good and workable or not. I don't care whether it is unique or not. And if they impose unnecessary burden, then I wonder why other countries r doing it too (since u claim they r not unique)

Well theres the food, the PAP propogandists to keep myself entertained with, the high pay not matching the level of competence across the board. These are the good things. PAP also employ a lot of people that would not be employed in private sector that is good too, like Mediacorp shows that ONLY the islanders can watch. As to how cruel Singapore can be, ask Van Tuong Nguyen's family (remember him?) and Francis Seow.

I think their performance as ministers r not tat bad because I can see continuous improvement in each sector

Mediacorp may be performing badly recently :( However Raintree production r trying to produce shows for international audiences... trying la

Van Tuong Nguyen, the drug trafficker ? He deserve to die

Well if Singaporeans are NOT included in the survey

R u sure ?

It is up to the GOVERNMENT in any part of the world to prove that any policy will NOT lose money. IF they lose money, who is willing to take the responsibility.

True. But it seems a lot of people just condemn all policies as losing money when it in fact has made money

Please dont exaggerate only the minister in charge WKS. Let me also ask the question: are you happy that MSK escaped and the boss in charge of security is also scot free?

Actually, I am not happy myself. I think somebody's head have to roll and the answer to why he escaped have to be released soon

Its not the worst place to live in. In another survey, Changi Airport came in third whereas KL airport came in second kelong right?

wat survey is tat ?