Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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Stupid. Oh fellow muslims, see how dumb assed demagogues are speaking in your religion's name again and again. They're so improper in seeking to protect their freaking almighty God (almighty indeed!), when a harmless lady just wants a simple entitlement to her OWN MIND?
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The lady who turned away from the straight path(renounce her religion) pose no threat to the believers, provided the believers are steadfast on the Law of God.
One of the possible reasons for her renunciation is loss of faith, another is the failure of alleged religious indoctrination or brainwashing.
If she receives death threats from extremists, the most likely solution is for her to emigrate. -
denounciation of the muslim faith is also a sin ah?
wah then lidat call this religion? non-sense.
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dun think this apply in msia only....in sgp or anywhere, same prob as well. it is a religion thing.
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It doesn't happen in a nation that does not place such contradictions on the Constitution.
Frankly, it's sad that her own nation cannot find a way to ensure that this kind of issue is solved. If you have a Constitution that states you are a secular state, then enforce it and make sure people get it.
This is why religion should never mix with the state. They must always be separate. -
cmon pple...let a malaysian enlighten u all.
all malays in malaysia are required by the constitution to be muslim...no way out. Its the law. They can put in jail or use ISA.
its only applies in malaysia.Not in Sg or indonesia. -
So they have to renounce Malaysian citizenship to renounce their faith?Originally posted by curryman:cmon pple...let a malaysian enlighten u all.
all malays in malaysia are required by the constitution to be muslim...no way out. Its the law. They can put in jail or use ISA.
its only applies in malaysia.Not in Sg or indonesia. -
Did we just witness a 3 step back into dark ages.
to constrict a Race to a particular religion, within a multi-culture enviornment, i believe is a pretext for trouble.
Instead of seeing each other as Malaysian, very soon you will see the country divided by ethnic muslim, taoism and christian. Than the demographic will move within this social divide. -
bro ... Malaysia is NOT multi-cultural ....Originally posted by Arapahoe:Did we just witness a 3 step back into dark ages.
to constrict a Race to a particular religion, within a multi-culture enviornment, i believe is a pretext for trouble.
Instead of seeing each other as Malaysian, very soon you will see the country divided by ethnic muslim, taoism and christian. Than the demographic will move within this social divide.
the only time they claim to be multi-cultural is on tourism malaysia advertisements ....
even Indonesia, with a much more over-whelming Muslim majority as a percentage, does not practice something like this ....
but then again ... what's put down on one's identity card is just that ... a few letters inked on a card .... what you don't allow people to do in law, they'll just do it in private .... -
So?What have it got to do with us?
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I think it has to do with SG is because our history cross path. I think the last think we want to see is a Serb Christian and a Serb Muslim classification situation. Its never going to end.
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I hear it's not that diff in Singapore actually .... a malay chap I know who went the other way ... says there'll be a lot of harassment for him if he goes public ... so he's everything else but on paper .... -
how to renounce?malays r protected by the govt. go other countires and compete on equal ground?they will not survive..singapore malays are much more respectable and dignified.Originally posted by LazerLordz:So they have to renounce Malaysian citizenship to renounce their faith? -
well i have known a malay lady converted to catholic and married to an indian, It is only within her muslim social circle that she avoid. But at least she don't have to worry about legal issue. Police won't come knocking on her door because she converted.
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The Muslims in Singapore enjoy more religious freedom. They can smoke and drink if they want to. There are a few(mostly young) who renounce Islam and were disowned by their parents. So they seek refuge in sanctuaries.
I personally know of two Muslim ex-colleagues, one renounce Islam so that he can marry a childhood sweetheart whoÂ’s a Christian. His parents mustÂ’ve been disappointed but did not disapprove.The other one loves cha siew bao.
I remember one article in the Malaysian newspaper mentioned that more than a hundred thousand Malaysians have renounced their Muslim faith. However they would not go to the Syariah court. They know that they would be sent for repentence classes. And if they refused, they would be charged with contempt of the Syariah court and be sent to religious rehab camps. -
Less so.Originally posted by Fatum:I hear it's not that diff in Singapore actually .... a malay chap I know who went the other way ... says there'll be a lot of harassment for him if he goes public ... so he's everything else but on paper ....
I had a classmate who openly converted, his family was fine with it. Could be that they are one of those kentangised Malays too. -
Though you must understand that for some, to be a muslim or not is not a matter of choice, but a way of life. So they view people who convert out not as making any choice but as making a mistake that they must be rescued from. For them there is no question or choice about it... you are a muslim from the day you are born until they day you die no matter what you do.
That's why they are far less chin chai about people converting out, and if you scale this up to the national policy level... well then here you go. -
At least that's the way I understand it from what one muslim dude who was trying to justify the apostasy law.
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if we extend that reasoning, they should convert us on pain of death to rescue all the non-believersOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Though you must understand that for some, to be a muslim or not is not a matter of choice, but a way of life. So they view people who convert out not as making any choice but as making a mistake that they must be rescued from. For them there is no question or choice about it... you are a muslim from the day you are born until they day you die no matter what you do.
That's why they are far less chin chai about people converting out, and if you scale this up to the national policy level... well then here you go.
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Birth isn't a determinism to anything. What more, Umar, whom muslims should know says something of, "Will you enslave people when they were born free of their mothers?" The muslims who used the cliched way of life argument is really missing the point that there is no Quranic basis on interfering with freedom of religion in the first place.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:For them there is no question or choice about it... you are a muslim from the day you are born until they day you die no matter what you do. -
Punishment for Apostasy – Quran and Hadith
The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
"If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him."
Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates.
Quran 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief:
"There shall be no compulsion in religion ..."
God is willing to welcome an apostate back into his fold if he(apostate) repents and seeks forgiveness.
[Quran 3:89] “Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
This is understandable. Surely God will say “the heck with you” but it's not a death penalty. The apostate can seek solace and santuary in another religion.
[Quran 4:137] “Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.”
Some say we need the hadith to explain the Quran because the Quran is too difficult to understand. Why do people who find it difficult to understand a single volume of God's revelation feel it necessary to refer to 50 volumes of hadith books for clarification! Would God reveal a message so difficult to understand, yet expect people to follow it? This does not make sense.
So do not attempt to study the hadith on your own. It is almost impossible for anyone to go through all the books of hadith without getting confused and totally lost. Ask for guidance from a Muslim scholar. -
Before this thread is hijacked by ''eager muslim bashers'' in branding Malaysia as a softer 'Taliban State' - we should ask ourselves if Islam is the only Religion that prevent its followers from giving up the Faith ?
Catholicism is known to punish those from its flock who renounces the Faith, by utiilising its ''ultimate method'' of ''ex-communication'' to condemn the renouncer of the Faith to 'eternal damnation'.
The Catholic Religion do not accept birth control, and even the advocating and teaching the use of condom as an affront to the teachings of the Catholic Church - qualifying ex-communication.
Why will two of the oldest religions in the World - Islam and Catholicism - be so adamantly restrictive towards allowing its 'members' from leaving their respective congregation by renouncing their faith ?
Why will these two great religions treat those who have renounced the Faith in such harsh manner ?
While ''ex-communication'' - as practised by the Catholics - is a psychological tool on the human weakness for religious security and comfort, Islamic Countries tend to treat those who renounces its Faith more severely in physical ways.
The simple reason for the Catholic Church to retain the numbers in its flock, and to increase its population can only be for ''financial reasons'.
The Catholic Church - like most organised religions - is an entity that benefit from the organised collection of tithes that are supposedly ''voluntarily'' but are expected from each and every believer of the Faith.
To marry a Catholic, will require one to convert to the Faith, or at least the off-spring must be baptised as Catholics.
Islam is no different in its characteristic demand for the contribution of tithes, and for one to convert to its Religion if a non-believer is to marry a Muslim.
While most religions have ''democratised'' - it seems that these two religions remain locked in ancient practices, as these two are also the Oldest Faiths in the history of Mankind.
Since the old practices benefit these two respective religions, and also create political benefits to those few countries that dictate the Religion as the official State Religion, it is only natural that they will pronounce more harsh treatments towards those renouncing the Faith.
It is surprising that Indonesia being the most populous country is more liberal in giving its Citizens more leeway in deciding their personal religious beliefs.
This reflects the maturity of its people, its society, it social and cultural standards, and in the manner that its people respect each other.
One can see the diversity of religions practised by the Indonesians - who are blood related to the Peninsular Malays - as we see the Indonesian practising Hinduism in Bali, while in Java there are members in the same families being Christians and Muslims all living under the same roof.
Religion is practised to the extreme - through narrow interpretation - only for the sole benefit to those looking for quick access to personal power in the Present Age - whether Political, Social or Religious Powers, as these Power Seekers see the easy opportunity to capitalize on the human weakness in needing a 'Religious Crutch' to face the challenges of a Modern World. -
The only thing is that each one of us is born as a Human Being first rather than a muslim or christian. I can understand why if one person adopted muslim it cannot change because it is a betray to the Almighty, Similarly to christian but i think faith is an important decision that each one of us have to made that spritual connection, and comunication. Religion is a personal thing. To shave it down into the throat, Religion don't work that way.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Though you must understand that for some, to be a muslim or not is not a matter of choice, but a way of life. So they view people who convert out not as making any choice but as making a mistake that they must be rescued from. For them there is no question or choice about it... you are a muslim from the day you are born until they day you die no matter what you do.
That's why they are far less chin chai about people converting out, and if you scale this up to the national policy level... well then here you go. -
During the crusades, the Pope's word was treated as that of 'GOD'. Present day skeptics will view the Pope in those ages as a 'WARLORD'. Is it any surprise that it can come full circle, with islamic fundamentalists being branished as 'WARMONGERS', being labelled as the founders of modern day terrorism.Originally posted by Atobe:
Religion is practised to the extreme - through narrow interpretation - only for the sole benefit to those looking for quick access to personal power in the Present Age - whether Political, Social or Religious Powers, as these Power Seekers see the easy opportunity to capitalize on the human weakness in needing a 'Religious Crutch' to face the challenges of a Modern World.
To a certain extent, the current war on terrorism could subtly be termed the modern day 'crusade'. -
There is growing sentiments in the religion that it is fundamentally fawed.
That it is up held by fear, peer pressure and draconian measures and blind obedience. And is protected by legislation, apleasement and common courtesy of the non followers. Belief of its divine source is eroding.
It has cult characteristic. Fear and political clout is its underlying principle. Not fear of God or compassion. The innocent sheep in their midst fooled us all, and blind us to the political agendas of the teachers.
The communist attempt at world domination through imporvished workers is over. We are now facing the same threat all over again. World domination through religion. And another round or suppression, persecution and anhilation.
Sheez!
Hopefully common sense will prevail and all these averted.