Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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I am speaking from a Jewish point of view. I presume they work on the same premises?Originally posted by googoomuck:Some say we need the hadith to explain the Quran because the Quran is too difficult to understand. Why do people who find it difficult to understand a single volume of God's revelation feel it necessary to refer to 50 volumes of hadith books for clarification! Would God reveal a message so difficult to understand, yet expect people to follow it? This does not make sense.
So do not attempt to study the hadith on your own. It is almost impossible for anyone to go through all the books of hadith without getting confused and totally lost. Ask for guidance from a Muslim scholar.
Actually Allah revealed the Quran to a selected group of people, not the whole world. The Quran is meant to be interpreted with the Hadith.
The Hadith could be more cryptic than the Quran.
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Your reply is very one-sided.Originally posted by Atobe:To marry a Catholic, will require one to convert to the Faith, or at least the off-spring must be baptised as Catholics.
Islam is no different in its characteristic demand for the contribution of tithes, and for one to convert to its Religion if a non-believer is to marry a Muslim.
While most religions have ''democratised'' - it seems that these two religions remain locked in ancient practices, as these two are also the Oldest Faiths in the history of Mankind.
1. Catholic Christianity and Islam are not the oldest faiths in the history of mankind. The oldest practising faith should be Judaism. And Judaism does not encourage conversion of the spouse. The biblical precedent would be the case of Naomi who married an Israelite. When her husband died, the mother-in-law tried to discourage her from joining the ranks of Judaism.
2. While the offsprings are baptised as Catholics (I'm not sure whether this is compulsory or not), it does not mean they are Catholics when baptised. If they are, then the parents and Church are shoving the faith down the child's throat. The truth is the children need to go through confirmation at age 16 to be a professing Catholic.
3. I don't think if you backslide, they will ex-communicate you. They can't be bothered la .. haha -
Actually Islam believes that the People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians) both have a share in the world to come.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Though you must understand that for some, to be a muslim or not is not a matter of choice, but a way of life. So they view people who convert out not as making any choice but as making a mistake that they must be rescued from. For them there is no question or choice about it... you are a muslim from the day you are born until they day you die no matter what you do.
Hence, if the lady wants to op-out and becomes a Christian, it shouldn't be a grave mistake.
Rather that than a wayang Muslim. -
All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion, nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution. -Thomas Jefferson
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This one is America. You think they care what a founding father of America think?Originally posted by (human):All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion, nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution. -Thomas Jefferson -
A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrate. -Thomas Jefferson
We use truth and reason to counter falsehood. -
nice googling ....
but then again ... religion is inherently illogical .... it's more faith than reason ...
and that's what makes it frightening ... especially when the killing of "non-believers" can be so casually discussed ...
next ! ... -
Haiyo .. the truth and reason is always found in their belief system .. not in yours or mine or Thomas Jefferson's.Originally posted by (human):A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrate. -Thomas Jefferson
We use truth and reason to counter falsehood.
So to denounce Osama .. you use the Quran and Hadith. You quote Islamic scholars. You don't quote Thomas Jefferson.
Isn't it the same case now? -
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=256400Originally posted by Fatum:nice googling ....
but then again ... religion is inherently illogical .... it's more faith than reason ...
and that's what makes it frightening ... especially when the killing of "non-believers" can be so casually discussed ...
next ! ...
this killing of "non-believers" is just a myth... -
truth and reason is subjectiveOriginally posted by (human):A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrate. -Thomas Jefferson
We use truth and reason to counter falsehood.
anyway as siad religion is by definition illogical -
Truth is truth, there are no international line. Isn't it?Originally posted by Icemoon:Haiyo .. the truth and reason is always found in their belief system .. not in yours or mine or Thomas Jefferson's.
So to denounce Osama .. you use the Quran and Hadith. You quote Islamic scholars. You don't quote Thomas Jefferson.
Isn't it the same case now? -
what you quoted are not truths but opinions.Originally posted by (human):Truth is truth, there are no international line. Isn't it? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
As a self-admitted Jew, you should be grateful that my ''reply is very one-sided'' - as I had left out Judaism in my critique to the odd practices of Catholicism and Islam.
Your reply is very one-sided.
1. Catholic Christianity and Islam are not the oldest faiths in the history of mankind. The oldest practising faith should be Judaism. And Judaism does not encourage conversion of the spouse. The biblical precedent would be the case of Naomi who married an Israelite. When her husband died, the mother-in-law tried to discourage her from joining the ranks of Judaism.
2. While the offsprings are baptised as Catholics (I'm not sure whether this is compulsory or not), it does not mean they are Catholics when baptised. If they are, then the parents and Church are shoving the faith down the child's throat. The truth is the children need to go through confirmation at age 16 to be a professing Catholic.
3. I don't think if you backslide, they will ex-communicate you. They can't be bothered la .. haha
If you are complaining that Judaism was left out when I had mentioned the Catholic and Islamic Religions as the oldest in the history of mankind, you should also note my 4th paragraph at the beginning of my post when I had mentioned the following:-
''Why will two of the oldest religions in the World - Islam and Catholicism - be so adamantly restrictive towards allowing its 'members' from leaving their respective congregation by renouncing their faith ? ''
In any case, it is very odd that while the Malaysian Politician will claim all kinds of Privileges and Rights for their Malay Race, they will 'EXCLUDE the Privileges and Rights to Religious Freedom' from the Malaysian Malays, but giving this Privilege and Right to the Chinese, Indians, Eurasians, and the ORIGINAL Bumiputras in the Native Tribesmen in Peninsular Malaysia, Sarawak and Sabah.
This is a sad day when all the other Malaysian Races mourn this loss of privilege and rights to their Malay Brothers and Sisters.
It is very ironical the convulted courses that Malaysian Politics take. -
What self admitted Jew?Originally posted by Atobe:[color=darkred]As a self-admitted Jew, you should be grateful that my ''reply is very one-sided'' - as I had left out Judaism in my critique to the odd practices of Catholicism and Islam.
I eat char siew bao also you know .. -
Singapore is the best man!Originally posted by Atobe:It is very ironical the convulted courses that Malaysian Politics take.
Even the must touted example of the United States is rife with religious lobbying. -
To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly. -Benjamin FranklinOriginally posted by Icemoon:what you quoted are not truths but opinions.
It's up to you to decide. Truth is there even if you are not aware or not know it's there. There's freedom. -
hmm... then what happen if a malay in m'sia wants to become a buddhist or a christian? how? they must renounce their citizenship and come to spore?
wow..... -
That's the reason why there should be freedom of choice.Originally posted by frederikan:hmm... then what happen if a malay in m'sia wants to become a buddhist or a christian? how? they must renounce their citizenship and come to spore?
wow..... -
ya lor. i dun get it leh, if islam said that God gave mankind freewill of choices, then i wonder, is the government a corrupted one sent by their God or is their God not very clear the commandments.Originally posted by (human):That's the reason why there should be freedom of choice. -
It looks like you are following his words blindly.Originally posted by (human):To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly. -Benjamin Franklin
Do you have that much faith in Benjamin Franklin? -
what ah ben means is that faith alone is not the only answer.Originally posted by Icemoon:It looks like you are following his words blindly.
Do you have that much faith in Benjamin Franklin?
faith + plus action is. -
I follow by reason not by person.Originally posted by Icemoon:It looks like you are following his words blindly.
Do you have that much faith in Benjamin Franklin? -
Actually why are Malays muslims in the first place?Originally posted by frederikan:ya lor. i dun get it leh, if islam said that God gave mankind freewill of choices, then i wonder, is the government a corrupted one sent by their God or is their God not very clear the commandments.
I don't get it .. they are not even direct descendants of Ishmael or the Prophet Muhammed. -
must be direct ah? i dunno leh. limbei not muslim and never will be one.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually why are Malays muslims in the first place?
I don't get it .. they are not even direct descendants of Ishmael or the Prophet Muhammed. -
This is just a misconception... not all malays are muslims... even in malaysia... got malay hindu, malay Buddhist, etc...Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually why are Malays muslims in the first place?
I don't get it .. they are not even direct descendants of Ishmael or the Prophet Muhammed.