Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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yah, but why such laws exist? where's the freedom of worship?Originally posted by MohamedF:This is just a misconception... not all malays are muslims... even in malaysia... got malay hindu, malay Buddhist, etc... -
Originally posted by frederikan:
Government do not exist by its own creation.
ya lor. i dun get it leh, if islam said that God gave mankind freewill of choices, then i wonder, is the government a corrupted one sent by their God or is their God not very clear the commandments.
It is the citizens that make the Government, and with some members from the Citizenry that ''volunteer'' themselves to stand and form the Government.
The Laws are established ''supposedly'' according to the wishes of the Citizens.
However, more often then not, there will be special interests to protect that will result in preserving the status quo or enhance the special rights and prvileges of a target group. -
hmm... then too bad lor. the people ask for it.Originally posted by Atobe:Government do not exist by its own creation.
It is the citizens that make the Government, and with some members from the Citizenry that ''volunteer'' themselves to stand and form the Government.
The Laws are established ''supposedly'' according to the wishes of the Citizens.
However, more often then not, there will be special interests to protect that will result in preserving the status quo or enhance the special rights and prvileges of a target group. -
The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin
Reason is the enemy of faith. - Martin Luther
So which one should country running with? Reason or faith? -
Originally posted by MohamedF:
Malaysian Malays adopting Hinduism or Buddhism as personal religions ?
This is just a misconception... not all malays are muslims... even in malaysia... got malay hindu, malay Buddhist, etc...
Are you dreaming, or is this a blatant propaganda ?
These events are highly unlikely under present circumstances as revealed in the current legal proceedings that is the cause of the current debate in Malaysia. The Malaysian Malays who adopt other religions if ever identified will be dealt with by the Syriah Court.
We know for a certainty that some Malaysian Indians - (even in India and Singapore) are Muslims, and some Sri Lankans can be mistaken for Indians are actually Buddist worshippers.
Are you confused in identifying these Indian Muslims and Sri Lankan Buddhists as Malays ? -
what is reason?Originally posted by (human):The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin
Reason is the enemy of faith. - Martin Luther
So which one should country running with? Reason or faith? -
To look at this law, is to not look at Islam simply as a religion, but a way of life, which is what Islam is. It is not as simple as one person worshiping a god, but a community acting in faith.Originally posted by frederikan:yah, but why such laws exist? where's the freedom of worship?
Try to imagine being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And being in a country, you are born into its citizenship. And being a citizen of a country, you are subjected to its laws.
I'm not an expert in Islamic law, but I believe that this law was made in the early ages when the muslim community is still at a waring state with the pagans tribe. And by leaving Islam, its like as if an NS men has gone AWOL in time of crisis.
However, another misconception is that this law came from the quran, which is not. The quran never stated anything about killing an apostate. This law is made by a government and can be changed by the government. Time has changed and so should the law.
But that doesn't mean I want the law to be abolished. Remember, being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community. Thus I would like to see the law remain but the punishment to change. You can't force someone to believe in something, but you can discourage someone from leaving. -
You need to eat to live. That's reason.Originally posted by frederikan:what is reason? -
but you can leave the country without being punished, thats immigration; i'll say its more like resigning and not going awol and definitely not in time of crisisOriginally posted by MohamedF:To look at this law, is to not look at Islam simply as a religion, but a way of life, which is what Islam is. It is not as simple as one person worshiping a god, but a community acting in faith.
Try to imagine being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And being in a country, you are born into its citizenship. And being a citizen of a country, you are subjected to its laws.
I'm not an expert in Islamic law, but I believe that this law was made in the early ages when the muslim community is still at a waring state with the pagans tribe. And by leaving Islam, its like as if an NS men has gone AWOL in time of crisis.
However, another misconception is that this law came from the quran, which is not. The quran never stated anything about killing an apostate. This law is made by a government and can be changed by the government. Time has changed and so should the law.
But that doesn't mean I want the law to be abolished. Remember, being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community. Thus I would like to see the law remain but the punishment to change. You can't force someone to believe in something, but you can discourage someone from leaving. -
The logic is kinda silly.Originally posted by MohamedF:But that doesn't mean I want the law to be abolished. Remember, being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community. Thus I would like to see the law remain but the punishment to change. You can't force someone to believe in something, but you can discourage someone from leaving.
If your country is the best, why would you want to leave? Similarly, if an Islamic relationship with God is the true relationship with God and most enjoyable thing on Earth, why would a Muslim want to leave that relationship?
Instead of discouraging people from leaving, why don't they make people stay out of their own free will? -
Actually Islam also accept that Christians and Jews have a share in the next world.Originally posted by MohamedF:And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community.
So the analogy is like leaving England for the States during WWII. Treason meh? -
TrueOriginally posted by hisoka:but you can leave the country without being punished, thats immigration; i'll say its more like resigning and not going awol and definitely not in time of crisis
the first question is hard to answer coz got many variables...Originally posted by Icemoon:The logic is kinda silly.
If your country is the best, why would you want to leave? Similarly, if an Islamic relationship with God is the true relationship with God and most enjoyable thing on Earth, why would a Muslim want to leave that relationship?
Instead of discouraging people from leaving, why don't they make people stay out of their own free will?
Try to imaging yourself in the shoes of a government man... would you just anyhow allow your citizen to leave your country? Wouldn't you want to discourage them from leaving your country?
Even though not big treason like assassinate the president, it's still a considered a small treason like setting a bad example to those who are loyal to the countryOriginally posted by Icemoon:Actually Islam also accept that Christians and Jews have a share in the next world.
So the analogy is like leaving England for the States during WWII. Treason meh? -
Quran 9.1 – 9.6Originally posted by MohamedF:http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=256400
this killing of "non-believers" is just a myth...
The verses are about repentence and dispensation.
Treaties(what ever treaties must surely tie to Islam)
1) Unbelievers who have not upheld their part of the treaty, Muslims can break the treaty and are to give them 4 monthsÂ’ notice.
2) Unbelievers who have upheld their part of the treaty, Muslims are to honour the treaty until it expires. After that, no more new treaty.
Either way, when the time is up, the unbelievers are given two choices – willingly submit or be submitted by physical force.
The battle, if there is any, has to be an offensive fighting against the unbelievers.
The verse 9.5 is clear as crystals. ItÂ’s not possible for itÂ’s interpretation to be taken out of context. -
Do you think islamic terrorists are "extremists" or do you share their point of view?Originally posted by MohamedF:But that doesn't mean I want the law to be abolished. Remember, being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community. Thus I would like to see the law remain but the punishment to change. You can't force someone to believe in something, but you can discourage someone from leaving. -
The way to do it is to encourage them to stay, not discourage them from leaving.Originally posted by MohamedF:Try to imaging yourself in the shoes of a government man... would you just anyhow allow your citizen to leave your country? Wouldn't you want to discourage them from leaving your country?
If everyone is leaving, it means there is something wrong with your government isn't it? -
You have to see it from a good government and bad government point of view.Originally posted by MohamedF:Even though not big treason like assassinate the president, it's still a considered a small treason like setting a bad example to those who are loyal to the country
The South Korean defecting to North Korea is not setting a bad example to his ex fellow citizens. To the South Koreans, he is just an idiot.
So Islam is South Korea. Other religions are like North Korea. -
These "islamic" terrorist are misguided... probably because of illiteracy or something... after all the bombing in afgan and iraq, I wonder if their are enough schools to teach the children?Originally posted by alveo:Do you think islamic terrorists are "extremists" or do you share their point of view?
Without education, the illiterate can easily be misguided to believe in terrorist ideology... the muslims have a strict code of conduct in war including, no destruction of civilian property, no killing of civilians, and an ultimatum before an attack... terrorism clashes with these codes...
but I do understand what they stand for which is to get America out of the middle east... they have done enough damage already... -
Actually, the moment Islam came out of Arabia, they made war on the Sassanid Empire and the Byzantine Empire. They conquered the Sassanid Empire and drove the Byzantines out of the Levant into Asia Minor. You have plenty of forced conversions, and indirect pressure on the populace to convert.Originally posted by MohamedF:I'm not an expert in Islamic law, but I believe that this law was made in the early ages when the muslim community is still at a waring state with the pagans tribe. And by leaving Islam, its like as if an NS men has gone AWOL in time of crisis.
However, another misconception is that this law came from the quran, which is not. The quran never stated anything about killing an apostate. This law is made by a government and can be changed by the government. Time has changed and so should the law.
But that doesn't mean I want the law to be abolished. Remember, being a muslim is like being a countrymen. And by wanting to leave the country is still an act of treason and will set a bad example to the community. Thus I would like to see the law remain but the punishment to change. You can't force someone to believe in something, but you can discourage someone from leaving.
Leaving the country and renouncing citizenship isn't considered treason actually. Now the issue here really, is as you say, that many Islamists made it law such that one cannot leave the religion under the pain of death. However, you became contradictory when you said that this law must remain but you cannot force someone to believe in something.
So ultimately, you must choose. -
I thought they were trained to be terrorists in some madrasahs or something? They were given religious and military training.Originally posted by MohamedF:These "islamic" terrorist are misguided... probably because of illiteracy or something... after all the bombing in afgan and iraq, I wonder if their are enough schools to teach the children? -
This is a loaded question... try to specify why the people want to leave...?Originally posted by Icemoon:The way to do it is to encourage them to stay, not discourage them from leaving.
If everyone is leaving, it means there is something wrong with your government isn't it? -
Too many FTs?Originally posted by MohamedF:This is a loaded question... try to specify why the people want to leave...? -
Singapore also has madrasah too... but don't have the same teachers...Originally posted by Icemoon:I thought they were trained to be terrorists in some madrasahs or something? They were given religious and military training.
I'm not good with history so I don't know much about this... All I know is that Islam only permit war if it is to defend itself, or if it to correct an injustice (after all other options is used). Any other wars are made by humans.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Actually, the moment Islam came out of Arabia, they made war on the Sassanid Empire and the Byzantine Empire. They conquered the Sassanid Empire and drove the Byzantines out of the Levant into Asia Minor. You have plenty of forced conversions, and indirect pressure on the populace to convert.
The original law was made to prevent treason during the waring state... However, the law remains now as a means to discourage apostasy as apostasy is considered a grave sin... I am for this law, but I am against the punishment... some suggestion I've heard was a 3 day camp for them to renounce their decision, afterwards they are left to their decision...Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Leaving the country and renouncing citizenship isn't considered treason actually. Now the issue here really, is as you say, that many Islamists made it law such that one cannot leave the religion under the pain of death. However, you became contradictory when you said that this law must remain but you cannot force someone to believe in something.
So ultimately, you must choose.
simi FT?Originally posted by Icemoon:Too many FTs?
For the record, I am no expert in Islamic law... All my post are based on online research and reasoning... -
Yeah I agree that Char Siew is more addictive than crackOriginally posted by Icemoon:What self admitted Jew?
I eat char siew bao also you know ..
once you start eating you can never turn back
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Singapore can talk about religious stuff one meh? some more this thread is getting so long liao...i thought people who talk about religion in s'pore will be sent to jail one?
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People can talk about religion, but can't cause hate...Originally posted by mahawarrior:Singapore can talk about religious stuff one meh? some more this thread is getting so long liao...i thought people who talk about religion in s'pore will be sent to jail one?
what do you think eternal hope and wisdom bliss is for...?