Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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This maybe off topic abit but could someone please define the meaning of " Masuk Melayu"? It should be "Masuk Islam" rite? In Malaysia do you become a Bumi Putera if you "Masuk Melayu"? I believe DR Mahathir is of Indian Descent but somehwere along the line his family became trasformed into a different race.
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hey man...dun mislead other pple....all malays in malaysia are required to be muslims by law by constitution by societyOriginally posted by MohamedF:This is just a misconception... not all malays are muslims... even in malaysia... got malay hindu, malay Buddhist, etc... -
its actually a fine line, masuk melayu...actually i dun think there is such a thingOriginally posted by Short Ninja:This maybe off topic abit but could someone please define the meaning of " Masuk Melayu"? It should be "Masuk Islam" rite? In Malaysia do you become a Bumi Putera if you "Masuk Melayu"? I believe DR Mahathir is of Indian Descent but somehwere along the line his family became trasformed into a different race.
masuk islam is when u convert...of course u must be a non malay lah if u convert to muslim.
if u muslim its will 1 up ur status a bit in malaysia but still not on the same level as malays (who are muslims of course)
dr M got to get to such a high level is because 99.999% of the malays do not know that he is an indian descent. not many pple r educated n informed in malaysia u know -
all religions have extremist.do not single out islamOriginally posted by alveo:Do you think islamic terrorists are "extremists" or do you share their point of view?
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God never says that, god never approve of that. Anyone heard what god say?The rule is implemented by humans.Originally posted by curryman:hey man...dun mislead other pple....all malays in malaysia are required to be muslims by law by constitution by society
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MohamedF: Am I right to say want to discourage apostasy because it'll set a bad example, or some low morale on to us muslims? Me as another muslim cannot agree with that reasoning.
1. If Ill apostatize, I cease to be a muslim therefore it is weird for me to be still expected to reciprocate to the muslims.
2. In the Quran, God says God shows signs on earth and in our own souls until we know it is the Truth. So then if a muslim can't even manifest a personal responsibility for his or her own faith but rather depend on peer approval/assurance, that really means that muslim isn't understanding God at all but operating on an emotional level.
3. If you're meddling in matters of faith, you're really usurping the role of the prophets of God since it is assumed you can relate God's will appropriately, but no, you're no prophet, and so those who reject you are not blameworthy.
4. God said to Muhammad that Muhammad isn't a keeper or a guardian over people, but merely to warn.
5. The diversity of religious communities is a natural human condition but the goal is to God, not God's institutions. 5:48. -
too bad lah....the govt use it as a machinery to control the malaysOriginally posted by (human):God never says that, god never approve of that. Anyone heard what god say?The rule is implemented by humans. -
do not single out the muslims.Originally posted by curryman:too bad lah....the govt use it as a machinery to control the malays
some christian leaders too are vulnerable to such an act.
thereby, we have the term called, spiritual abuse. -
That's exactly the way that some people think... and such people are not just restricted to muslims.Originally posted by hisoka:if we extend that reasoning, they should convert us on pain of death to rescue all the non-believers
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They set up the terrorist organisation UMNO as a base.Originally posted by curryman:too bad lah....the govt use it as a machinery to control the malays -
so trueOriginally posted by ceecookie:They set up the terrorist organisation UMNO as a base.
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It's outdated, that's what it is. Each man or woman should be allowed the freedom to choose their religion, and be protected from forces that deny them this freedom.
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MalaysiaÂ’s highest court ruled today in a split decision that a Kuala Lumpur woman who renamed herself Lina Joy has lost her 12-year fight to legally become a Christian. According to Malaysian law, Joy will remain a Muslim whether she wants to or not, and her religious status will remain on her identity card. Justice Richard Malanjun, a Christian, dissented in the ruling.
The outcome of the case was hardly unexpected, given Malaysia's religious and ethnic history. A crowd of about 300 Muslims waited outside, reading the Koran and chanting as Federal Court Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim delivered the judgment to a packed courtroom in the administrative capital Putrajaya, saying that jurisdiction over Joy’s case remains with Malaysia’s syariah, or religious court. As the decision was being read, the shout “Allahu Akhbar” resounded through the Palace of Justice.
Joy, 43, remains a recluse, fearing retaliation in MalaysiaÂ’s always edgy religious and ethnic atmosphere. She cannot legally marry her non-Muslim partner, a cook, because the law requires non-Muslims to convert to Islam if they wish to marry someone of that faith. She has not spoken to the press since her case became public. She converted to Christianity when she was 26.
In 1999, although Joy succeeded in getting officials to change her name on her MyKad, a national identification card that must state the bearerÂ’s religion, she was unsuccessful in having the word Islam removed. That was what brought her to the federal court, which considered three questions: Whether syriah court certification was needed before the National Registration Department could change the religious affiliation on Joy's ID card, whether the NRD correctly construed its powers when it imposed the above requirement, which is not expressly provided for in the regulations and most importantly, whether the syriah courts' authority took precedence over the civil courts in cases where Muslims renounced their faith.
Although the case was decided nearly a year ago, the federal court delayed its public ruling, partly because of the thorny legal issues and the question of whether the countryÂ’s federal courts should defer to syariah law. Despite the fact that Malaysia is largely a moderate Islamic country, only about 60 percent of its citizens are Muslims, existing in an uneasy balance with the mostly Chinese Christian, Buddhist or Taoist minority who make up about 25 percent of the population. Indians and other minorities make up another 11 percent.
Authorities earlier this week were urging calm, as were Muslim religious leaders. The victory in court should defuse any further concerns, although Christian opponents were expected to be holding silent vigils and issuing statements. The reform organization Aliran issued a statement saying that: "The freedom of religion guaranteed by the Federal Constitution under Article 11 comes across as hollow and meaningless. This decision has totally rendered null and void the freedom of religion guaranteed by the Federal Constitution. Under the circumstances, the Federal CourtÂ’s decision has a devastating effect on issues of fairness and justice. Concerned citizens will rightly wonder whether the judiciary is capable of delivering justice for those who turn to it. They will be turned away from the judicial system of the country thinking that the judges who are sworn to uphold the Federal Constitution in the course of their duty are not living up to their oath of office."
It is not possible to be an ethnic Malay in Malaysia without being a Muslim. Apostasy or conversion is a punishable offence in most states, either with a fine or a jail sentence or both. Muslims dominate most of the public institutions and have done so since bloody 1969 riots that officially killed 192 persons on both sides of the ethnic divide, but are presumed to have killed hundreds more
Despite the fact that one clause of the country’s original federal constitution guarantees freedom of religion, another, added later, states that “State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Labuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam." Generally, the government has sought to stay out of the issue and has referred questions over apostasy or conversion to the country’s syariah. Not surprisingly, the syariah courts have ruled unanimously that ethnic Malays must remain Islamic.
Malaysia, however, is on an increasingly secular path on all sides of the ethnic and religious divide. On a breakneck path to modernization for the past 25 years, urban citizens of all ethnic groups have become more secular, with young Malays adopting miniskirts, jeans and all the accoutrements that go with modern lifestyles. Religious and government leaders have watched that with increasing concern.
Accordingly – and especially with the departure of former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, an authoritarian figure who largely kept ethnic concerns isolated -- official Islam is stiffening its resistance. The syariah courts have particularly refused to budge on any issues involving a change of religion. One woman, Kamariah Ali, who joined a sect and publicly renounced Islam in 1999, was ordered jailed in 2005 on charges of “insulting Islam.”
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Then, last year, a mountaineering hero and Army corporal named Manyan Moorthy died of cancer and was buried in a Muslim cemetery with Muslim rites despite the fact that his wife insisted he had never converted. The civil High Court ruled that it could not overrule the syariah court that had declared him a Muslim.
Religious tensions have occasionally flared. Last November, Muslims gathered outside a Catholic church in Ipoh after text messages that the church was preparing to baptize a group of Malays, including a celebrated yachtsman, Azhar Mansor, who had sailed around the world single-handedly in 1999 without an engine. Azhar, who no longer lives in Malaysia, is widely believed to be a quietly practicing Christian although he has denied it. Although the SMS proved to be false, authorities were forced to move in to forestall violence. Unverified accusations of mass conversions into Christianity by Malays have been swirling in the press and blogs, further stoking the fire.
The attorney general’s chambers announced recently that it was considering establishing a commission to study religious-sensitive cases like Joy’s, said Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Nazri Abdul Aziz. The commission, if it comes to into existence, is expected to include religious leaders of all faiths. The government wants a system in which disputes such as conversion, especially when it involves children, can be addressed in an ‘extra legal manner.'
The most recent incident that has gripped Malaysians and make international headlines is the forced separation of a Muslim woman, Siti Fatimah, from her husband, Suresh Veerapan, who contended that Siti was no longer a Muslim and in fact a practicing Hindu born to Muslim parents, and that her name is actually Revathi Masoosai. Islamic religious officials charged Siti Fatimah with committing apostasy and ordered for her sent to a ‘rehabilitation’ center for almost 100 days. Her detention was extended another 80 days in April. In an interview with the television network Al Jazeera, Siti Fatimah’s mother said she would raise the couple’s 15-month-old granddaughter as a Muslim. -
At the end of the day some basic principle still applied.
Religion affair should not interfere with states law and certainly states should not get into the affair of the faith.
Military leader should report to civilian government and not take over a country as a political leader.
At the same time political leader should stay out of military affair. -
In the end, she will be just a false believer in one religion, and a true believer in another, regardless of our worldly registration and IC whatnot.
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Another Malaysian Muslim woman, known only as Jamaliah, pleads for government help to renounce Islam.
Her father, a Hindu, converted to Islam in order to take a second wife, a Muslim(after having tasted the goods?).
HereÂ’s the twist. Jamaliah was born to his first wife, a Hindu, after his conversion.
Jamaliah was brought up by her father and step-mother after her mother left. So Jamaliah was registered as a Muslim.
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=25260&sec=59&con=22 -
why assume the Malaysian way of things to be the global/standard way?
And if u aint a Muslim, please don't try and differentiate the Quran and Hadith like you know... -
Originally posted by googoomuck:
why are there conflicting messages between the Hadith and Qu'ran? sorry im not very religious myself.
Punishment for Apostasy – Quran and Hadith
The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
[b]Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
"If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him."
Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates.
Quran 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief:
"There shall be no compulsion in religion ..."
God is willing to welcome an apostate back into his fold if he(apostate) repents and seeks forgiveness.
[Quran 3:89] “Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
This is understandable. Surely God will say “the heck with you” but it's not a death penalty. The apostate can seek solace and santuary in another religion.
[Quran 4:137] “Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.”
Some say we need the hadith to explain the Quran because the Quran is too difficult to understand. Why do people who find it difficult to understand a single volume of God's revelation feel it necessary to refer to 50 volumes of hadith books for clarification! Would God reveal a message so difficult to understand, yet expect people to follow it? This does not make sense.
So do not attempt to study the hadith on your own. It is almost impossible for anyone to go through all the books of hadith without getting confused and totally lost. Ask for guidance from a Muslim scholar.
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'cos you never read the context.Originally posted by cApitaland:why are there conflicting messages between the Hadith and Qu'ran? sorry im not very religious myself.
and they are supposed to be a bit cryptic. -
Opinions are like assholes. Everrybody has one.Originally posted by Master -_-:why assume the Malaysian way of things to be the global/standard way?
And if u aint a Muslim, please don't try and differentiate the Quran and Hadith like you know... -
i see some have more than one assholesOriginally posted by googoomuck:Opinions are like assholes. Everrybody has one. 
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ItÂ’s humansÂ’ fault. Readers often choose any interpretation of the Quran and hadith that serves his purpose.Originally posted by cApitaland:why are there conflicting messages between the Hadith and Qu'ran? sorry im not very religious myself.
HereÂ’s some safety tips in case you are unaware.
1. Do not mishandle the Quran(e.g. throw the book into the toilet)
2. Do not insult the prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him)
You do that, you lose not only your mind but also your head.
Once thereÂ’s a contract on your head, it entices bounty hunters, thugs-for-hire and professional hit men to ensure that you donÂ’t have long to live.
Nobody can guarantee your safety!
Respect. That's the key word.
You have been advised. May peace be upon you. -
[quote]Originally posted by googoomuck:
[b]
ItÂ’s humansÂ’ fault. Readers often choose any interpretation of the Quran and hadith that serves his purpose.
HereÂ’s some safety tips in case you are unaware.
1. Do not mishandle the Quran(e.g. throw the book into the toilet)
2. Do not insult the prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him)
You do that, you lose not only your mind but also your head.
Once thereÂ’s a contract on your head, it entices bounty hunters, thugs-for-hire and professional hit men to ensure that you donÂ’t have long to live.
Nobody can guarantee your safety!
Respect. That's the key word.
You have been advised. May peace be upon you.
After reading your message I suddenly remember an old western TV series called "HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL"
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If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, then and only then will truth, prevail over fanaticism. -Thomas Jefferson
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Lets see how the Malaysian Federal Court and Sharia Court handle this new and very unusual case that is developing:-
Malaysian switched at birth seeks religion change
June 2, 2007
Reuters
KUALA LUMPUR, June 2 (Reuters) - A Malaysian Muslim man switched at birth in a hospital mix-up has filed a lawsuit seeking to become a Buddhist and have his name changed, newspapers reported on Saturday.
The suit, filed in a civil court, comes within days of Malaysia's best-known Christian convert, Lina Joy, losing a battle in the country's highest court to have the word "Islam" removed from her identity card.
That ruling threatened to further polarise Malaysian society between non-Muslims who feel that their constitutional right to religious freedom is being eroded, and Muslims who believe that civil courts have no right to meddle in Islamic affairs.
The judge said the civil court had no jurisdiction in the case and it should be dealt with by the country's Islamic courts.
But sales executive Zulhaidi Omar, 29, is seeking a declaration from the National Registration Department that he is a Buddhist and his name should have been Eddie Teyo, the New Straits Times reported.
Zulhaidi was raised in an ethnic Malay family, and discovered his true origins only after a Chinese woman at a supermarket where he worked noticed his features were similar to those of her father.
Three visits by the woman and her parents convinced him to take a DNA test that confirmed the ties.
As a child, Zulhaidi was teased about his Chinese-like features. He never felt accepted by the family which brought him up, and left them when he was 13.
He waited on tables and worked at a car wash to put himself through school, eventually ending up with a diploma in business administration.
In practice, sharia courts do not allow Muslims to formally renounce Islam, preferring to send apostates to counselling and, ultimately, fining or jailing them if they refuse to desist. Such people often end up in legal limbo, unable to register their new religious affiliations or legally marry non-Muslims. Many keep silent about their choice or emigrate.
Lina Joy, 43, was born Azlina Jailani and was brought up as a Muslim, but at the age of 26 decided to become a Christian. She wants to marry her Christian boyfriend, a cook, but she cannot do so while her identity card declares her to be Muslim.
In 1999, the registration department allowed her to change the name in her identity card but the entry for her religion remained "Islam".
Malaysia, like neighbouring Indonesia, practises a moderate brand of Islam, but Muslims account for only a bare majority of Malaysia's population and are very sensitive to any perceived threats to Islam's special status as the official religion. Malaysia has been under Islamic influence since the 15th century, but big waves of Chinese and Indian immigrants over the last 150 years has dramatically changed its racial and religious make-up. Now, about 40 percent of Malaysians are non-Muslim.
REUTERS