Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Salaam,
Did [b]God create Man ?
Or did Man - with his lack of confidence in facing the great unknown, and in his quest to know his origin and his purpose on Earth - find it all too convenient to create a neat answer in a ''nutshell of a three lettered word'' - called : 'GOD' ?
It is odd some of the major Religions that continue to exist for the past centuries were founded on ''Revelations'' that are experienced only by the Prophets from Ancient Times.
After a series of Prophets that seems to have begun during the earliest recorded religious works of Modern Religion in the Jewish Torah, somehow after the death of the last Blessed Prophet that started the Islamic Relgion - there seem to be no further Revelations experienced by anyone who will step forward to claim the title of Prophet.
The recorded testaments Jesus as written in the New Testament had him saying to beware of many 'false prophets' that will come after him, and for mankind to beware of such guileness.
Since the Jews of that period had rejected Jesus, was Jesus already prophesing the calamity that Mankind is to expect for all the falseness of those that come after him ?
In this present day and age, Mankind is left to interprete the recorded ancient words of those mysterious experiences of Revelations that only a few men of that period seems to have been privileged by GOD.
Mankind has seen a long drought period since the last Prohpet passed away in 632 A.D. - did someone forgot to update the line to GOD for more revelations to be passed down; or has the development of MANKIND annoyed GOD so much that he decided to abandon any more of his ''Revelations'' to anyone else ?
Mankind is now left to ponder and to interprete in any way all the "Revelations'' and Teachings of those in the 7 Century and earlier.
Can we trust the interpretations of Present Day Mankind - with all its own personal agenda, ambitions, and guile ?
[/b]
In Islam we revere all Prophets from Adam as to the last and the seal.
The Judasit do not recognise Propeht Jesus as.
We do.
But we dont recognise Propeht Jesus as as God.
And we do not recognize the Bible as the word of Allah,but rahter it contain the teaching of the Propehts but most are man made "inspiration"
Thus the final book comes down..The Quran.
The Qurna has many identical stories and makes some facts more clear.
But there is one thing in the Quran that challenges all of mankind.
It is to create a book like the Quran.
Or unable to
Create a Chapter
Or if still unable to a verse.
The last chapter of the Quran has only one line..
And yet this challenge has gone unmet.
you can google for this challenge and send it to any non muslim linguist,,who can speak arabic.
Also point to note,the Quran is one book but it can be read in 10 ways,with the same meaning.
Intonation and cadence,but you just have to make one way.
So the challenge goes out to one man or an individual.
Allah has promised that it will be unmet till the last day. -
Don't bother la .. you obviously dunno how Christianity works.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
Simply enough,we asked her if she belives that the Bible is divine?
It is truth?
She siad yes,and so we shouwed her passages,contradicting passages and pronographical passages.,incssstous remarks.
We also highlighted to her of Gospels,do they have the gospel according to Jesus as? No,they have "inspired stories"/..
No point showing her my bible is better than your bible. No use one. It is said that no-one converts to Christianity because of academic or theological reasons. People convert because they are touched by the Holy Spirit.
I am not trying to start a flame too .. just showing you the reality.
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Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:This teaching sounds Jewish to me.
Heng lah .. Judaism does not have stupid apostasy law.
For apostasy in Judasim do read below..
Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.[17]
So the laws in Judasim is clear,to kill apostates even it be your son or doughter or kin or friend.
the whole community will kill him.. -
No way Jews can recognize Jesus as a prophet. Because Jesus deny the Torah. This is clear if we consider what the apostle Paul taught.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:The Judasit do not recognise Propeht Jesus as.
We do.
But we dont recognise Propeht Jesus as as God. -
wait .. is this practised today?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:So the laws in Judasim is clear,to kill apostates even it be your son or doughter or kin or friend.
the whole community will kill him..
You seem to have no idea of how Judaism works, just like most of the Christians I encountered.
FYI, there are 613 mitzvahs in the Torah but there is NO WAY to follow all the 613. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:The five holy books - Book of Abraham, Book of Moses (Torah), Psalms of David, Gospel of Jesus, the HOLY QURAN.
I think it is oxymoronic to call the four of them holy and corrupted. Why didn't Allah preserve the other 4 .. I am amazed.
We call them holy becasue they are.
they are the teaching of the Propehts who received divine teaching from Allah.
But sad to say that those books no longer exist PURELY.
We do not accept Books written by others or "inspired".
But becsue we are told to revere the People of the Book,we have the Quran to differencite what is right and what is wrong.
Anoher name for the Quran is the CRITERION. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:wait .. is this practised today?
You seem to have no idea of how Judaism works, just like most of the Christians I encountered.
FYI, there are 613 mitzvahs in the Torah but there is NO WAY to follow all the 613.
But there it exist in your book,,,so you cant deny it existence.
I realise that for Judasit you need not follow the TOTAL 613 laws until the Messiah return.
But then would you follow this law when it comes up.
And whether it is practised or not,it is in your book that you claim to be divine.
For muslim we follow the Quran,but there is no verse that teaches to kill apostates. -
I read this from a Jewish author:Originally posted by Zulkiflim:The Qurna has many identical stories and makes some facts more clear.
But there is one thing in the Quran that challenges all of mankind.
It is to create a book like the Quran.
Or unable to
Create a Chapter
Or if still unable to a verse.
The last chapter of the Quran has only one line..
And yet this challenge has gone unmet.
He said the Quran begins with a threat whereas the Torah begins with the majestic proclamation that God creates the universe ex nihilo.
So in the beginning of one holy book you find life, in the other you find gloom.
PS: The Quran properly begins in chapter 2 (The Cow) because chapter 1 is the Al-Fatiha. -
Not true.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
But there it exist in your book,,,so you cant deny it existence.
I realise that for Judasit you need not follow the TOTAL 613 laws until the Messiah return.
But then would you follow this law when it comes up.
And whether it is practised or not,it is in your book that you claim to be divine.
For muslim we follow the Quran,but there is no verse that teaches to kill apostates.
Jews and Christians do not deny its existence. But so what? Neither can you deny the fact that it is not practised today. And FYI, you cant find any apostasy law being practised today, even in Israel. So what does this show? All Jews commit apostasy because they deny their own Torah?
Even when the Messiah returns, nowhere does it say the law will be followed. It is quite clear the law was meant for that generation because of specific circumstances.
Sorry .. is this how Islam works? Because it is inside the holy book, so it must be followed?
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salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:I read this from a Jewish author:
He said the Quran begins with a threat whereas the Torah begins with the majestic proclamation that God creates the universe ex nihilo.
So in the beginning of one holy book you find life, in the other you find gloom.
PS: The Quran properly begins in chapter 2 (The Cow) because chapter 1 is the Al-Fatiha.
Um i think you have just answered yourself..
You THINK the Quran starts with Chpater 2,whereas Muslim all read the Al Fatiha FIRST..
The Opening
1:1 In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful:
Bismillāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
1:2 Praise be to God, the Lord of the Universe.
Al ḥamdu lillāhi rabbi l-'ālamīn
1:3 The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
1:4 King of the Day of Judgment.
Māliki yawmi d-dīn
1:5 You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help
Iyyāka na'budu wa iyyāka nasta'īn
1:6 Guide us to the straight way;
Ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭ al mustaqīm
1:7 The way of those whom you have blessed, not of those who have deserved anger, nor of those who stray.
Ṣirāṭ al-laḏīna an'amta 'alayhim ġayril maġḍūbi 'alayhim walāḍ ḍāllīnSo you see,we always start with VEnerating Allah,the creator not the creation.
And both books contain gloom and doom but also salvation and love.
We muslim do not hide any part of the Quran nor choose to follow what we like and throw away what we dont like.
We show all that is,for the Propeht Muhammad saw said,to hide any part of the religion is a sin.. -
We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. -Thomas Jefferson
Clearly it has gone violation of liberty and pursuit of happiness by force. -
I'm sorry but in the Quran the gloom and doom starts in chapter 2 .. right after you proclaim the majesty of Allah in chapter 1.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:So you see,we always start with VEnerating Allah,the creator not the creation.
And both books contain gloom and doom but also salvation and love.
Quite frightening isn't it? You proclaim someone to be the best, then immediately follow by a threat - don't follow me, you pay the price. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:Not true.
Jews and Christians do not deny its existence. But so what? Neither can you deny the fact that it is not practised today. And FYI, you cant find any apostasy law being practised today, even in Israel. So what does this show? All Jews commit apostasy because they deny their own Torah?
Even when the Messiah returns, nowhere does it say the law will be followed. It is quite clear the law was meant for that generation because of specific circumstances.
Sorry .. is this how Islam works? Because it is inside the holy book, so it must be followed?
But did you not deny just now ealier?
That Judasim does not have this law?
You yourself speak that your book is holy,but choose to follow what you choose..
And choose to throw aways what you choose?
I have talked to another orthodox jew that claim that born Jews will follow ALL the mitzah,are you orthodox or progressive?
And for Islam,we follow what is in the Quran,the five pillars of faith.
Inshallah.
In Islam we follow and read of the other faith not by the SEEDS but by the book.
The book is central to faith,do you not agree. -
Stop posting, Zulkiflim. Just stop. Sigh.
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Yours is a convenient argument. It begs the question why Allah didn't preserve those books.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
We call them holy becasue they are.
they are the teaching of the Propehts who received divine teaching from Allah.
But sad to say that those books no longer exist PURELY.
I think Islam is the only religion which rever five holy books but four of them are corrupted. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm sorry but in the Quran the gloom and doom starts in chapter 2 .. right after you proclaim the majesty of Allah in chapter 1.
Quite frightening isn't it? You proclaim someone to be the best, then immediately follow by a threat - don't follow me, you pay the price.
At first thank you for acccepting that it is the first chaper..
LOL
Like i said before the Quran has admonishment ,,what you term as gloom..
But may i ask,what is the gloomies lin you can find? -
YOUR HEAD LAH. I still eat char siew bao .. you say leh!Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
But did you not deny just now ealier?
That Judasim does not have this law?
You yourself speak that your book is holy,but choose to follow what you choose..
And choose to throw aways what you choose?
I have talked to another orthodox jew that claim that born Jews will follow ALL the mitzah,are you orthodox or progressive?
Wah kao .. why the whole world think I am a Jew?
While the law is in the bible, to my knowledge it is not practised today. As to why it is not practised today, you can ask the rabbis to explain to you.
The Jews do not pick and choose what to follow; instead they are like the Muslims in that they interpret the written Torah with the Oral Torah.
Born Jew will follow all mitzah .. fair enough. Now my question is, what are the mitzvahs that can be practised today?
You seem to make the same mistakes as the Christians, that because Jews have 600-odd commandments from the Torah, they are obliged to follow all of them.
Sorry la .. keep on associating you with the Christians. But fact is, you are as ignorant as them when it comes to understanding Judaism. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:Yours is a convenient argument. It begs the question why Allah didn't preserve those books.
I think Islam is the only religion which rever five holy books but four of them are corrupted.
No muslim will say the why wihtout a hadith.
Perhaps thre is an answer,,but i dont know it.
And come to think of it,perhaps Islam is the one religion that recognize 5 holy book but only have 1 COMPLETE/PURE...lol you are right.. -
All along I accept that it is the first chapter. However, just because it is in the first chapter doesn't mean it is where the Quran proper starts.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
At first thank you for acccepting that it is the first chaper..
LOL
Like i said before the Quran has admonishment ,,what you term as gloom..
But may i ask,what is the gloomies lin you can find?
First or second chapter, there is no deny that the "admonishment" or gloom comes a little too quickly. Remember my comparison is with the Torah. Whereas the Torah starts with a grand account of creation by the Creator, the Quran starts with "admonishment".
The gloomies actually start in the first chapter. Read 1:7. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:YOUR HEAD LAH. I still eat char siew bao .. you say leh!
Wah kao .. why the whole world think I am a Jew?
While the law is in the bible, to my knowledge it is not practised today. As to why it is not practised today, you can ask the rabbis to explain to you.
The Jews do not pick and choose what to follow; instead they are like the Muslims in that they interpret the written Torah with the Oral Torah.
Born Jew will follow all mitzah .. fair enough. Now my question is, what are the mitzvahs that can be practised today?
You seem to make the same mistakes as the Christians, that because Jews have 600-odd commandments from the Torah, they are obliged to follow all of them.
Sorry la .. keep on associating you with the Christians. But fact is, you are as ignorant as them when it comes to understanding Judaism.
you eat char siew pao dont mean you arent a jew..right.
There are some muslim who drink and fornicate and eat pork but still refer to themselves as muslims.
perhaps as you keep syain me and chrsitian are wrong,,why dont you tell us? -
Shalom,Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
No muslim will say the why wihtout a hadith.
Perhaps thre is an answer,,but i dont know it.
And come to think of it,perhaps Islam is the one religion that recognize 5 holy book but only have 1 COMPLETE/PURE...lol you are right..
Personally I find many convenient arguments made in Islam and Christianity. Because they are trying to displace the faith(s) before them, we need to have a higher level of scrutiny when it comes to examining their arguments. Problem is when you apply a higher standard, their arguments hardly sound convincing anymore. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:All along I accept that it is the first chapter. However, just because it is in the first chapter doesn't mean it is where the Quran proper starts.
First or second chapter, there is no deny that the "admonishment" or gloom comes a little too quickly. Remember my comparison is with the Torah. Whereas the Torah starts with a grand account of creation by the Creator, the Quran starts with "admonishment".
The gloomies actually start in the first chapter. Read 1:7.
Alhamdulilah..
May i ask,where does the gloomy part end for you??
http://www.isna.net/library/quran/quran_e/2.html -
Corruption of the holy booksOriginally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
No muslim will say the why wihtout a hadith.
Perhaps thre is an answer,,but i dont know it.
And come to think of it,perhaps Islam is the one religion that recognize 5 holy book but only have 1 COMPLETE/PURE...lol you are right..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Holy_Books
It seems like it is labelling holy books as corrupted. How come you are telling us that there is still one COMPLETE and PURE out of the 5? Could you please enlighten us? -
Don't you find it strange?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
you eat char siew pao dont mean you arent a jew..right.
There are some muslim who drink and fornicate and eat pork but still refer to themselves as muslims.
I defend Judaism in my posts. If I am a Jew and still eat char siew pao .. I will be ashamed to defend Judaism here. Because I know the mitzvahs clearly yet I never follow them dearly. -
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. -BuddhaOriginally posted by Icemoon:Don't you find it strange?
I defend Judaism in my posts. If I am a Jew and still eat char siew pao .. I will be ashamed to defend Judaism here. Because I know the mitzvahs clearly yet I never follow them dearly.