Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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Amen!Originally posted by (human):Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. -Buddha
Which is why in Judaism, you find rabbis arguing with each other. The Talmud is filled with rabbis arguing with each other over even the smallest thing. How can this kind of faith be true? If the sages cannot agree with each other .. then the rank and file Jewish follower will be even worse right?
Amazing .. I challenge you to find this in Islam or Christianity.
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Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure. -Thomas Jefferson
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How come you keep on quoting Jefferson?Originally posted by (human):Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure. -Thomas Jefferson
I want Benjamin Franklin can?
Or Thomas Paine also can. 'cos he wrote something called "Common Sense". -
The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. - Thomas Paine
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YouÂ’ve quoted Deuteronomy 13:6-10 only.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
For apostasy in Judasim do read below..
Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.[17]
So the laws in Judasim is clear,to kill apostates even it be your son or doughter or kin or friend.
the whole community will kill him..
Over thousands of years, the Jews have disobeyed God time after time and God returned the favour with stiff punishments. However, God has not break his covenent with Abraham.
If one reads Deuteronomy 13:1-18, then he or she will understand that God has saved the Jews from slavery in Egypt and Moses was charged with leading them to the promised land. God gave them specific instructions to follow so that they would not repeat the mistakes in the past.
Anyone(including loved ones) or any tribe that try to mislead the Jews into idolatry, the Jews must carefully find out if that is true. If that was true, then the Jews shall destroy those people and their livestock. They were to burn everything and take nothing for themselves, not even the piece of land.
Then their God won't be angry anymore, and He shall have mercy on the Jews and make them successful, just as He promised their ancestors.
You ask yourself this question, “aren’t the Jews now living in their promised land and are successful now?” -
Wait! I think I found something.Originally posted by Icemoon:How come you keep on quoting Jefferson?
I want Benjamin Franklin can?
Or Thomas Paine also can. 'cos he wrote something called "Common Sense".
Thomas Jefferson kena conned by religion.....no no, that's incorrect.
Thomas Jefferson Knew Islam.
http://politics.wikia.com/index.php?title=Why_Thomas_Jefferson_had_a_Koran[url] -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Asians emulate the West for the sake of progress, what progress has the adoption of the restrictive practises of an Arabic Religion brought to those who adopted it ''lock, stock, and barrel'' without even understanding the full implications of the teachings of the Blessed Prophet ?
Salaam,
Bism Mil Lah Hir Rah Man NIr Rahim.
May i ask,how do we muslim from east to west emulate the arabs?
Can you be more specific,i cna easily say that most asian also emulate the west..is that right?
Anf for a muslim not to know what the opening mean,then i would say IT IS SURPRISING.
When you say we abandoned our language and culture,well let see,we celebrate Hari Raya wearing our Malays dress,we speak malay,we have our own foods stuff much enjoyed by other races.
So perhaps you cna tell me how have we abandoned our culture?
The Malays of Malaysia during the 1950 through the late 1980s were a significantly different lot of people than they are today.
The earlier Malaysian Malay community - (and even in Singapore) - were known to be a carefree and fun seeking crowd, much like the Indonesian Malays who are seen as modern and forward.
There seem to be some kind of Islamic ''Revivalism'' during the 1990s, when the Malaysian Malays took sides with the Arabs in the protracted Middle-east geopolitics; and soon the general Malay Populations in Malaysia were encouraged to be associated closer to the Arab World.
During the period from the 1990s, there seem to be a more assertive and aggressive projection of the Malaysian way of being more Muslim than even the Arabs.
The aggressive moves concentrated on the propagandic superficiall forms and practises of Islam, based on the shallowest interpretation of the Islamic gems and in the narrowest manner circumventing the ''Religious Substance''.
The Malaysian womenfolk were ''encouraged'' to don headcover in a manner that is totally foreign to the local traditional Malay forms that have been in existence since even before the 1950s.
The insistence on the Muslim right to religious practises took on a politcal tone, when the Malay community demanded that all institutions recognise this Right irregardless of circumstances.
This has caused intra-communal discomfort and frictions, when suddenly the local Malay community began to change its outward appearance to resemble Middle-eastern Womenfolks - fully covered, and the traditional Malay feminine Sarong Kabaya lost into the historical dustbin.
Is there progress in abopting a foreign culture that is the anti-thesis to progress ?
Is it not surprising that Malaysia's Dr M. Mahathir had to shed tears and chide his Malay brethens for driving towards the wrong goals ?
How much of the Malaysian National Budget was wasted sending thousand of Malaysian Malay Youths to study in Islamic Universities in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran - with some going as far as Algiers ?
Dr Mahathir finally woke up to the huge wastage of national funds, when these Religious Graduates returned to Malaysia unable to help him realise his ''Malaysia Boleh'' vision by the year 2020; and became his political opponents.
Now we are seeing PM Abdullah Badawi attempting to reverse the damage done during the last ten odd years of blind religious fervour that has wasted at least two generations to misguided religious teachings.
He has redefined Islam in his effort to change the mindless religious fervour amongst the Malaysian Malays by evoking Islam Hadhari, so as to redirect the energy of the Malaysian Malays to the path of scientific, industrial, and commercial activities that were neglected since the 1990s.
The IRONY of the situation is when Malaysian Malays insist for its community to enjoy all EQUAL RIGHTS' as is guaranteed to all the other Malaysian ethnic communities, this Right to Freedom of Religion is not given to the Malaysian Malays - simply due to the erroneous HUMAN interpretation that Islam prohibits its own from leaving the faith.
And for a muslim,it is not irony,it simply is we do not like to lose a brother or sister ,we o wish to meet one another in Jannah.
The Ummah or muslim population is ONE ...the term is Ummah.
Any person misguided will Inshallah be taught back tot he right path.
Try absorbing this from one who seems to be more knowledgeable:
The QurÂ’an gives to responsible dissent the status of a fundamental right.
In exercise of their powers, therefore, neither the legislature nor the executive can demand unquestioning obedience...The Prophet, even though he was the recipient of Divine revelation, was required to consult the Muslims in public affairs. Allah addressing the Prophet says: “...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And...when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah” [22].
Since the principle of mutual consultation (“shura”) is mandatory [23], it is a Muslim’s fundamental right, as well as responsibility, to participate in as many aspects of the community’s life as possible. The Qur’anic proclamation in Surah 2: Al-Baqarah: 256, “There shall be no coercion in matters of faith” [24] guarantees freedom of religion and worship. This means that, according to Qur’anic teaching, non-Muslims living in Muslim territories should have the freedom to follow their own faith-traditions without fear or harassment. A number of Qur’anic passages state clearly that the responsibility of the Prophet Muhammad is to communicate the message of God and not to compel anyone to believe [25]. The right to exercise free choice in matters of belief is unambiguously endorsed by the Qur’an [26] which also states clearly that God will judge human beings not on the basis of what they profess but on the basis of their belief and righteous conduct, as indicated by Surah 2: Al-Baqarah: 62 which says:
Those who believe (in the QurÂ’an) And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), And the Christians and the Sabians, Any who believe in God And the Last Day, And work righteousness, Shall have their reward With the Lord: on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The QurÂ’an recognizes the right to religious freedom not only in the case of other believers in God, but also in the case of not-believers in God (if they are not aggressing upon Muslims) [27].
In the context of the human right to exercise religious freedom, it is important to mention that the Qur’anic dictum, “Let there be no compulsion in religion” [28] applies not only to non- Muslims but also to Muslims. While those who renounced Islam after professing it and then engaged in “acts of war” against Muslims were to be treated as enemies and aggressors, the Qur’an does not prescribe any punishment for non-profession or renunciation of faith. The decision regarding a person’s ultimate destiny in the hereafter rests with God.
The right to freedom includes the right to be free to tell the truth. The Qur’anic term for truth is “Haqq” which is also one of God’s most important attributes. Standing up for the truth is a right and a responsibility which a Muslim may not disclaim even in the face of the greatest danger or difficulty While the Qur’an commands believers to testify to the truth, it also instructs society not to harm persons so testifying [29].
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continuation
Yes, I am saying that all the other 8 judges were Muslims, and unfortunately they have not fulfilled their oath of office to execute their responsibility without fear or bias, as they were concerned that their judgment in favor of Lina Joy would expose them to the accusation of betraying their faith.
As for the Chief justice of Sabah ,he was only one dissenting voices,the other 8 judges aggred with the result.
So are you syaing because the other are muslim,they therfore are not learned? Or maybe bias.
They were not fulfilling their role as God fearing men, and unfortunately if they had been independent as the Chief Justice of Sabah and Sarawak, they would have come to the same learned conclusion.
The written judgement from the other two presiding judges clearly showed that they deferred the task to the Sharia Courts, when the Chief Justice of Sabah and Sarawak had stated that under the Malaysian Constitution, the Sharia Court in the Federal Territories had no such Constitutional Authority to pass judgement on the crime of Apotasy.
From the quote given in the preceding paragraph, were these two Federal Court Justices fulfilling their responsibility as Chief Justices, as well as being good Muslim when they will contravene the teachings of the Prophet - as mentioned in the preceding paragraph ?
What is so funny about these two events ?
As for the papers using Lina Joy,simly because of John walker,remeber the Australian taliban,he converted to Islam and had a muslim name,but th world media did not seefit to use his converted name.
Funny wont you say.
Are there any similarities ?
Is there any significance to this petty superficial reporting - or is it a characteristic trait of Muslims to indulge in the superficial forms ?
Does one mistake from someone, give you the opportunity to make the same mistake that you have perceived from the other ?
Were you not taught that when someone slap your right cheek, you do not react but also offer your left cheek too ?
You seem to have a long way to go before you understand fully the teachings of all the Prophets that preceded your Blessed Muhammed - despite your indulgence with the superficial use of the Arabic language.
Unfortunately, you can google all day and all night, the fact remains Muslim males in the Middle-east, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and even Iraq have committed atrocities towards muslim women that will certainly win them condemnations on judgement day when they appear before their GOD.
As for your undestanding that Muslim males are higher than muslim females,then all i cna say it show your lack of knowledge.
Inshallah you can easly google for the right of women in Islam .
Or you ca serch for the video of debate between a chrisita missionary and muslim
Are you denying this fact ?
As I have mentioned, did everyone after 632 A.D. - after the death of the Blessed Prophet - forget to renew the ''telephone'' to GOD ?
And for Islam,religion is both personal an communal.
When we pray we pray as ONE.
When we break our fast we brek as ONE
So the piety is differnt b there is noting distinguishin a muslim FORM OF PIETY towards ALLAH.
All is the same.
And the Quran was passed down to us in both oral and written form.
Alhamdulilah,when ever Allah sent a wahyu to the Propeht Muhammad saw,the Propeht would recite the wrods to his adherent and the scribes would write it down.
The entire collection of the Quran is recited as it is on every Hajj and fasting period.
And for Muslim we revre the old Prophet but we do not worship them
We revere Propeht Muhamamd saw but we do not worship them.
As somehow, since the earliest recorded ''Revelation'' to Abraham, and the last one to experience any more ''Revelations from GOD'' was the Blessed Prophet, over the last 10 odd centuries there seem to be no one else on earth to have experienced any more such ''Holy Revelations from GOD''.
Did GOD forget that he still has a line to all of us on this Globe called Earth ?
Why were there no longer any such ''Revelations'' even from the year 1000 to this present year of 2007 ? Did GOD simply forget us altogther ?
You can pray in unison, countless times a day, perform all the rites in all its superfical forms, it still do not qualify you as a true believer, as your actions belie your shallowness while pretending to maintain the superficial form of religious piety.
While we respect your rights to your beliefs and your preferred religious practises in praying countless times a day, it becomes an affront to our common sense when you pushed your stupidity on us with your unthinking insult to our senses.
Read the quote concerning the Koranic teachings on the respect of other religions.
Why Google it ?
In Islam we have 5 holy book,,,of them only one reamin intact and pure,the Quran.
The corruption of the other book,the OT and NT are plain for all to see.
Google for it..
Why not reveal your thought process in your understanding of what you have Googled, and allow us to see the brilliance of your understanding concerning ''The corruption of the other book,the OT and NT are plain for all to see'' ?
What is plain for you is simply due to the fact that your mind is simply plain, and aligned to see only in a preferred plain manner ?
Can ''plain light'' bend by itself ?
Why keep only 1 out of 5 holy books ?
Surely there must be something wrong with the other 4 books ?
The problem with unthinking and blind theoretical cleverness is that it becomes self-deceiving that leads to in-breeding a self-righteous belief; and inbreeding is known to lead to some very unhealthy consequences - as it is against the Law of Nature.
I do not wish to defend the Christian faith, nor Judaism, nor any Religion, but suffice it to say that your condemnation of the Old Testament and even the New Testament is simple stupidity as can only happen from the described false sense of superiority due to the inbreeding of self-deception. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Why be deceitful ?
Salaam,
In Islam we revere all Prophets from Adam as to the last and the seal.
The Judasit do not recognise Propeht Jesus as.
We do.
But we dont recognise Propeht Jesus as as God.
And we do not recognize the Bible as the word of Allah,but rahter it contain the teaching of the Propehts but most are man made "inspiration"
If you revere all Prophets from Adam you will have shown respect to the Old Testaments, the Jewish Torah - both of which predates the Quran.
Are you not being arrogant and deceiving yourself ?
Why should the teachings of the other Prophets in the Bible be man made ''inspirations'' ?
If we believe your writing to be true that :-
- surely, if ''his adherent and the scribes'' were present when ''a wahyu visited the Blessed Prophet'', they would have similarly have been involved and participated in the ''Revelations'' to the Blessed Prophet ?
''And the Quran was passed down to us in both oral and written form.
Alhamdulilah,when ever Allah sent a wahyu to the Propeht Muhammad saw,the Propeht would recite the wrods to his adherent and the scribes would write it down ''
Or was your Blessed Prophet similarly having some very ''inspirational experience'' much like the other prophets in the Bible that you have denied ?
Why would your Blessed Prophet be more unique in his ''inspirational revelations'' - while the other Prophets in the Old Testaments (and the New ? ) are merely ''man made inspiration'' ?
Are you not being shallowly conceited towards your own faith, and have already transgressed the teachings of your Blessed Prophet ?
Sadly, only the petty mind of a simpleton will admire the writing of one book that end with a single line.
Thus the final book comes down..The Quran.
The Qurna has many identical stories and makes some facts more clear.
But there is one thing in the Quran that challenges all of mankind.
It is to create a book like the Quran.
Or unable to
Create a Chapter
Or if still unable to a verse.
The last chapter of the Quran has only one line..
And yet this challenge has gone unmet.
you can google for this challenge and send it to any non muslim linguist,,who can speak arabic.
You admire a book for the fact that its Last Chapter consist only one line ?
This is pathetic.
The written Chinese Language is common to all Chinese, and can be read in 100 ways according to the diverse ethnicity of the Chinese people.
Also point to note,the Quran is one book but it can be read in 10 ways,with the same meaning.
Intonation and cadence,but you just have to make one way.
So the challenge goes out to one man or an individual.
Allah has promised that it will be unmet till the last day.
By your standards of value, will this not make any Chinese writings vastly more inspirational and superior to any Holy Books ?
Even the Jewish Torah has been deciphered with the use of power computers to reveal a matrix of letters that produces messages that confront us with past historical events.
This was revealed in the many books and movie concerning the Bible Code.
The Jewish Torah was written in the age before microprocessors were even known, and yet it required the use of powerful computers to trace and decipher the messages embedded and stored for centuries.
What will you say of an Ancient Book that reveals modern day events by a matrix of letters within itself ? -
This merits a... PWND!
Actually, prophethood, that is revelation thats usually associated with law, ended. Revelation only, doesn't. They keep on only worshiping the externals of the religious institution that was mostly bounded by time, people and place. The perennial phase, continues.Originally posted by Atobe:Why were there no longer any such ''Revelations'' even from the year 1000 to this present year of 2007 ? Did GOD simply forget us altogther ? -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:Don't you find it strange?
I defend Judaism in my posts. If I am a Jew and still eat char siew pao .. I will be ashamed to defend Judaism here. Because I know the mitzvahs clearly yet I never follow them dearly.
Your shame is your own ,your sin is your own.
I dont have have a part in your action nor feelings.
You decide yourself.
To lie to cheat,to donate,to love,that is all your decision.
I cant tell what is sinful if you are a Jew but lie,but i can tell you what is clear in Islam.
In Islam we cannot lie,it is a sin.
The Prophet has said that the tongue can casue equal or greater damage than the sword. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:Amen!
Which is why in Judaism, you find rabbis arguing with each other. The Talmud is filled with rabbis arguing with each other over even the smallest thing. How can this kind of faith be true? If the sages cannot agree with each other .. then the rank and file Jewish follower will be even worse right?
Amazing .. I challenge you to find this in Islam or Christianity.
In Islma what is clear is clear,what is not is decided by the Imam and head of soviety for that nation.
So there are many answers to life question but there are also many grey areas.
Like for exaple,to create embroys for the cures of affliction.
It was debated amongst the entire human community and decided that it is allowed.
For we consider a child to be sacred only after a certain day,after the soul is breathed in.
So in Islam abortion is ok,as long as it does not harm life.
So in point ,muslim do debate and make point and conclusion,it is not Judasim. -
''Revelations associated with law'' ???Originally posted by Gauze:This merits a... PWND!
Actually, prophethood, that is revelation thats usually associated with law, ended. Revelation only, doesn't. They keep on only worshiping the externals of the religious institution that was mostly bounded by time, people and place. The perennial phase, continues.
Is this a modern day phenomenon ?
Was prophethood outlawed, or did it simply atrophied as Civilization and knowledge progressed, while ignorance and superstition degenerated ?
Since there were no longer any further development to all the Holy Books - from the Jewish Torah, the Bible and the Koran - it will seem that since the last recorded revelation in the human scribed Koran that ended with the death of the Blessed Prophet Mohammed in 632 A.D., there seem to be a dearth of any further 'Religious Revelations' that is of any epic proportion.
Has ''time stood still'' for all the major Religions that originate from the Middle East - namely Judaism, Christianity, Islam ? -
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. -Thomas Paine
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Salaam,Originally posted by googoomuck:You’ve quoted Deuteronomy 13:6-10 only.
Over thousands of years, the Jews have disobeyed God time after time and God returned the favour with stiff punishments. However, God has not break his covenent with Abraham.
If one reads Deuteronomy 13:1-18, then he or she will understand that God has saved the Jews from slavery in Egypt and Moses was charged with leading them to the promised land. God gave them specific instructions to follow so that they would not repeat the mistakes in the past.
Anyone(including loved ones) or any tribe that try to mislead the Jews into idolatry, the Jews must carefully find out if that is true. If that was true, then the Jews shall destroy those people and their livestock. They were to burn everything and take nothing for themselves, not even the piece of land.
Then their God won't be angry anymore, and He shall have mercy on the Jews and make them successful, just as He promised their ancestors.
You ask yourself this question, “aren’t the Jews now living in their promised land and are successful now?”
Hmm,i posted the duet simply becasue Icemoon said it does not exist.
I ahve posted the verse to say it does,denial is fruitless.
Also Isreal is succesful?
May i ask how succeful is a coutnry that have to build wall and live in fear?
But the main problem,you want the Isrelias to live in peace and succes but forget every one .
As Hitelr killed the jews now do the Jews kill Palestinains.
Also your explanation of it is god command to kill any who try to mislead the jews,are you sayin it is ok for isrealis to murder both muslim and christians?
Do note that Jerusalem is holy to all 3 religion,Muslim have the Dome of the rock and Chrisitan have the Holy Sepulcher. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Salaam,
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[b]continue below
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Well i thank you for the lenghtly reply but it still dont answer the question to your accusation.
That Malays have abandoned our culture.
Can you pls provide some examples?
Also it is funny when you said Malays were more carefree in the past,can you give an example too.
And you do realise that Mahathir created the Mutimedia super corridor,enusred the survival of the Malaysian coutnry after the devastation economic impact.
Also i think that you need to find out more under the malaysian palns,the current one was number 9,so google for plan 1 to 8.
Also,it s funny that you assert that Mahathir sent Malaysian to study only religious education.
Well i for one have relatives in Malasyia and they went to England to study Advaced science,accounting,teaching and many other fields.
As for your assertion that Islam does not have punishemnt for apostates,then by the Quran there is not.
But besides the Quran we also have the Sunnah/hadith.
The teaching of th Propeht.
An exaple,the Quran command us to pray,but does not teach how,that is taught by the Angle gabriel thru the Propeht Muhammad saw.
Int he hadith there are stories of apostates who are killed.
Let me give an exaple,there is a clan of pagan who wishes to convert to Islam and after conversion,the community fell sick,so the Propeht told them to drink the urine of camels,after which they were cured,,but after being cured they apostatized and murdered the entire clan of the camels keepers.
They were all killed.
Of course it is debatable whether they were killed due to murder or apostatees.
But Inshallah i shall find others.. -
I never said the verse does not exist. I said Judaism does not have stupid apostasy law. Do you have problem comprehending what I said?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
Hmm,i posted the duet simply becasue Icemoon said it does not exist.
I ahve posted the verse to say it does,denial is fruitless.
Also Isreal is succesful?
May i ask how succeful is a coutnry that have to build wall and live in fear?
Israel is quite successful I'd say. And they don't live in fear. Only the western powers, like US and UK, live in fear. Bush is so fearful of another 911 that he has to attack Iraq in the name of eliminating terrorists. We hear terrorist attacks in Israel often. The citizens there have accepted it as part of life.
Note Israel has compromised on its sovereignity in the last few years. You know why Rabin was killed? -
I think he gave one - Malays abandoned their traditional costumes for Arabic costumes.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
Well i thank you for the lenghtly reply but it still dont answer the question to your accusation.
That Malays have abandoned our culture.
Can you pls provide some examples? -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Salaam,
[b]continuation
Why Google it ?
Why not reveal your thought process in your understanding of what you have Googled, and allow us to see the brilliance of your understanding concerning ''The corruption of the other book,the OT and NT are plain for all to see'' ?
What is plain for you is simply due to the fact that your mind is simply plain, and aligned to see only in a preferred plain manner ?
Can ''plain light'' bend by itself ?
Why keep only 1 out of 5 holy books ?
Surely there must be something wrong with the other 4 books ?
The problem with unthinking and blind theoretical cleverness is that it becomes self-deceiving that leads to in-breeding a self-righteous belief; and inbreeding is known to lead to some very unhealthy consequences - as it is against the Law of Nature.
I do not wish to defend the Christian faith, nor Judaism, nor any Religion, but suffice it to say that your condemnation of the Old Testament and even the New Testament is simple stupidity as can only happen from the described false sense of superiority due to the inbreeding of self-deception.
[/b]
This is a reply towards your reference that the other 8 member of the judges are incompetent or bias.
So all i cna say is,can you read thier minds or know their heart?
Do you also know the heart of the chrisitan judge?
Is he also likeiwse bias?
We cannot know he hearts of men but their decision are their not ours,their feeling are their not ours.
As for your "knowledge" on apostasy in Islam,it is what you wish to understand not the complete picture.
google for it..LOLOL...
As for the referenc to using Lina Joy converted name,i wold say it is simply hyprocrisy.
The western media choose not to uese John Walker Muslim name,any reason why?
Would you make noise if they use Lina Joy old name?
As for the action of the muslim in Afghan/Iraq and so on,we can simply say that what hey do is in their own culture not what in Islam.
Another exaple of assimilitaing Islam wihout losing their culture
The laws of Islam is clear regarding murder of muslim,man or women.
In Islam a woman who works need not share her money for the family,the man must be the one who support.
In Islma if a woman want a baby but the man cannot give one,the woman has the right of divorce.
there are many more laws in Islam that run counter to what is practised in the culture.
An exple in this malay community,when we marry a sum maybe 10 to 50 dollars is used to soleminized the marriage,but the culture dictates that a LARGER sum is given to the female..maybe 8K to 20K.
So culture and Islam is mixed.
And we already know that Islam is the final religion,no toehr will come from Allah.
It is the seal,while the other book are for one race only.
Islam is for all of mankind.
And piety is not for man to judge but Allah,we do and follow Allah commandemnt as best we can.
We make decision based on our own,the choices we make we know WILL ENSURE OUR DAMNATION OR SALVATION.
LEt me narate a story.
One time a woman was walking in the street and a fight ensues for her.
Afraid she runs into a mosque.
The Imam a yound man told her to leave for it is unseemly for a man and woman to leave.
She pleaded for safety and so they stayed the night together at different corners.
He read the Quran by candlelight and every so often he placed his hand over the light.After a time he removed his hand and placed it back again.
the woman was curious as to why but forbear and did not ask then.
In the morning when it is safe,the Imam asked her to leave beforet the morning prayers,she did but asked him why did he do what he did.
He replied,i am a man and you are a woman,ill thought came to me and so i placed my hand over the fire and thought to myself,if just being near the fire is painful to bear,what more so will the fire of hell feesl like if i rape the woman?
So it forbearance and love and fear of Allah,to remove your lust for a greater reward..
Inshallah -
Sounded like Arab has successfully infected Malays.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think he gave one - Malays abandoned their traditional costumes for Arabic costumes. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Salaam,
[b]continuation
Why Google it ?
Why not reveal your thought process in your understanding of what you have Googled, and allow us to see the brilliance of your understanding concerning ''The corruption of the other book,the OT and NT are plain for all to see'' ?
What is plain for you is simply due to the fact that your mind is simply plain, and aligned to see only in a preferred plain manner ?
Can ''plain light'' bend by itself ?
Why keep only 1 out of 5 holy books ?
Surely there must be something wrong with the other 4 books ?
The problem with unthinking and blind theoretical cleverness is that it becomes self-deceiving that leads to in-breeding a self-righteous belief; and inbreeding is known to lead to some very unhealthy consequences - as it is against the Law of Nature.
I do not wish to defend the Christian faith, nor Judaism, nor any Religion, but suffice it to say that your condemnation of the Old Testament and even the New Testament is simple stupidity as can only happen from the described false sense of superiority due to the inbreeding of self-deception.
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I asked you to google for it for knowledge is more valuable when one goes thru the pain for it.
To be spoon fed wiht knowledge is just like memorizing wihout understandng.
So searh google and learn for your own sake.
And for muslim,it is always clear to all of other faith that we revere them but also say plainly that their book are corrupted by man.
So if you so wish it google for it. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Atobe:The written Chinese Language is common to all Chinese, and can be read in 100 ways according to the diverse ethnicity of the Chinese people.
By your standards of value, will this not make any Chinese writings vastly more inspirational and superior to any Holy Books ?
Even the Jewish Torah has been deciphered with the use of power computers to reveal a matrix of letters that produces messages that confront us with past historical events.
This was revealed in the many books and movie concerning the Bible Code.
The Jewish Torah was written in the age before microprocessors were even known, and yet it required the use of powerful computers to trace and decipher the messages embedded and stored for centuries.
What will you say of an Ancient Book that reveals modern day events by a matrix of letters within itself ?
In what way am i being deceitful,i ahve said clearly that we revere all Propeht but he book that are current now are corrupted.
Is there any deceit in that line?
Also,it seems that you do know of the Bible,pls google for the explanaion of Gospel according to MArk.Like and so on,and why there are differences in each..
Those are inspiration as claimed by the church not Muslim.
And for the Quran,alhamdulilah that you have accepted that the Quran was trasferred in both oral and writen form.
But i think again you are mistaken about the holy books and what is current today.
For muslim we know that the other book may contain the word and teaching of the olden prophet but they also contain inspiration of man.
So they are not the true teaching and are corrupted.
Thus the Holy Book do not exist in its pure form.Only the Quran remian Pure.
As for the challenge,it is create a book if unable a chapter,,the smalles of which has only one line.
But man still is not able to do it.
And the challenge is to create the word that are as beautiful,as literal and gramatically correct as the quran.
the Quran.
And inshallah i shall learn more about the Bible code,bu as always i googled for it nd cmae out with many other article that debunk this ..
Can you google for it... -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:I think he gave one - Malays abandoned their traditional costumes for Arabic costumes.
So what you are sayi is that malays now dont wear the baju kurung?
I wonder did you take a look at the pictures of the last royaly in Malysia who got married...they were wearing the baju kurung,,the man even had a muslim hat and kris..
Wonder is the Kris an arabic addition??LOLOL -
Zulkiflim, please do not bring your islam apologetics here and try to prove a point that Christianity is false and Islam is the truth. You even dare to make comparison of the bible and say it contradicts with one another!
You want to know the real truth? Well since you started all this, I will continue too!
Your religion is started by a madman! Who thinks he met with "angel gabriel" who out of his holy attributes, shows anger and stupidity by shaking muhammad heavily and don't even know muhammad can't read! Is anger part of devil or angel attributes? And what on earth is muhammad doing in a cave for days for? Is it a norm to go away for days in caves and leave the poor rich wife alone??
Remember after he ran out of the cave feeling scared and stuffs, he didnt told khadijah his wife what happen. It was his wife who saw him in the state and immediately say, he is a chosen prophet!! Then he is committed to start a new career for himself!!
Not forgetting he looted caravans, and wage wars with nations proclaiming, Allah has set the spoils of wars as booty for the invasion!!
Your dearly prophet has kept slaves, a murderer who assign people to kill his opposition, a lustful womanizer, a pedophile and a very good war general no doubt.
Its also convenient for Allah, to replace, Jesus(Isa) with another man to die and bring Isa up to heavens, while this self proclaimed favourite of Allah died in the hands of a jewish woman!???
And lets talk about the satanic verses... He received "wisdom" from Allah, and said that, You can worship *** and ** and *** ( i forgot the names) as intercessors to Allah.....
And thus, the pagans around Arabia were happy that they can still worship the old idols! And when muhammad realised that it contradicts his ONE GOD POLICY religion, he retracted the verses and say, IT WAS THE DEVIL WHO SPOKE THE VOICES TO ME. WTF!? And can you actually trust the entire quran is the word of allah?? Of cos you can... why? Because the Quran says so....
I do agree Islam has fine and good teachings in it... But I do not agree with the founder and prophet of Islam....His characteristics defied prophets attribute....
Heck, thank god i left Islam!!
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Obviously I cant be saying malays now don't wear the baju kurung since we still see the costume around.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
So what you are sayi is that malays now dont wear the baju kurung?
I wonder did you take a look at the pictures of the last royaly in Malysia who got married...they were wearing the baju kurung,,the man even had a muslim hat and kris..
Wonder is the Kris an arabic addition??LOLOL
But pls take a look around. Other than the baju kurung (and any other malay traditional costume) and secular costumes (tees, jeans) .. I see many malays wearing arabic costumes too.
Wait a minute .. is the tudung a malay traditional costume?
Are you denying this?