Stupid apostasy law in Malaysia
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Is the tudung a traditional Malay wear?Originally posted by (human):Sounded like Arab has successfully infected Malays.
I suspect I see MORE malays wearing arabic costumes than malay costumes. The only times I see malay costumes are during a malay marriage and hari raya.
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salaam,Originally posted by mhcampboy:Zulkiflim, please do not bring your islam apologetics here and try to prove a point that Christianity is false and Islam is the truth. You even dare to make comparison of the bible and say it contradicts with one another!
You want to know the real truth? Well since you started all this, I will continue too!
Your religion is started by a madman! Who thinks he met with "angel gabriel" who out of his holy attributes, shows anger and stupidity by shaking muhammad heavily and don't even know muhammad can't read! Is anger part of devil or angel attributes? And what on earth is muhammad doing in a cave for days for? Is it a norm to go away for days in caves and leave the poor rich wife alone??
Remember after he ran out of the cave feeling scared and stuffs, he didnt told khadijah his wife what happen. It was his wife who saw him in the state and immediately say, he is a chosen prophet!! Then he is committed to start a new career for himself!!
Not forgetting he looted caravans, and wage wars with nations proclaiming, Allah has set the spoils of wars as booty for the invasion!!
Your dearly prophet has kept slaves, a murderer who assign people to kill his opposition, a lustful womanizer, a pedophile and a very good war general no doubt.
Its also convenient for Allah, to replace, Jesus(Isa) with another man to die and bring Isa up to heavens, while this self proclaimed favourite of Allah died in the hands of a jewish woman!???
And lets talk about the satanic verses... He received "wisdom" from Allah, and said that, You can worship *** and ** and *** ( i forgot the names) as intercessors to Allah.....
And thus, the pagans around Arabia were happy that they can still worship the old idols! And when muhammad realised that it contradicts his ONE GOD POLICY religion, he retracted the verses and say, IT WAS THE DEVIL WHO SPOKE THE VOICES TO ME. WTF!? And can you actually trust the entire quran is the word of allah?? Of cos you can... why? Because the Quran says so....
I do agree Islam has fine and good teachings in it... But I do not agree with the founder and prophet of Islam....His characteristics defied prophets attribute....
Heck, thank god i left Islam!!
Bis Mil lah hir rah man nir rahim..
First off,i would congratulate you to going halfway down the road to understanding.
You have read of all the insinuation against islam..
but may i kindly provide you with 2 sites of differing opinion.
Do google for answering islam and answering christianity.
All your accusation can be found in answering chrisitanity and those rebutal can be found in answering christianity.
So i sincerely hope you wont be a cup half full anymore.
But i wish to higlight one factor,when you say anger is part of the devil do not use such general statement wihout knowledge.
For Allah to has grown warthful,sodom and gammorah is one of it.
Do you beelive that Satan is God?
Astarfillah.
Also do read what every your holy book is,supposedly Buddha went away from his wife and son.
the olden Prophets often retreat up into the caves.
Propeht Moses as went up to commune with Allah to return with the commandment.
So do not speak in haste lest you sin,speak more carefully .
Revere the Prophet one and all.
As for war,there are many stories of Propehts going to war,an example is Propeht Solomon as.As you term the word booty is also shared amngst the votors.
As for slaves,Islam ordered that slavery should be cast aside slwoly and surely.
Prophet Muhammad saw had many wives and loved each one.
Only Islam has it in the HOLY QURAN that prohibit the number of woman a man can marry.
NO OTHER RELIGION PLACES HIS OBLIGATION.
It is a divine command.And cannot be broken.
So inshallah,do read more of the two sites i have given,for all your accusation there are answers and assuredly if you go there.
Also it is interesting to note that you claim to be a apostate.
May i ask you a simple question..
Do trees talk? -
Salaam,Originally posted by Icemoon:Is the tudung a traditional Malay wear?
I suspect I see MORE malays wearing arabic costumes than malay costumes. The only times I see malay costumes are during a malay marriage and hari raya.
Tudung is a malay custom,not a arabic,for the arabic they require to cover the entire hair,for the malay culture we have various degrees of tudung.
And i often see muslim wearing the baju kuring to leerna nd study.
The Students from madrsah wear the baju kurung daily too.
As do many malay teachers.
So perhaps it depend on the community or the area you around with. -
You are just nuts. Unwilling to see the truth. And yet come here and try to preach your goodness.. yucks!Originally posted by Zulkiflim:salaam,
Bis Mil lah hir rah man nir rahim..
First off,i would congratulate you to going halfway down the road to understanding.
You have read of all the insinuation against islam..
but may i kindly provide you with 2 sites of differing opinion.
Do google for answering islam and answering christianity.
All your accusation can be found in answering chrisitanity and those rebutal can be found in answering christianity.
So i sincerely hope you wont be a cup half full anymore.
But i wish to higlight one factor,when you say anger is part of the devil do not use such general statement wihout knowledge.
For Allah to has grown warthful,sodom and gammorah is one of it.
Do you beelive that Satan is God?
Astarfillah.
Also do read what every your holy book is,supposedly Buddha went away from his wife and son.
the olden Prophets often retreat up into the caves.
Propeht Moses as went up to commune with Allah to return with the commandment.
So do not speak in haste lest you sin,speak more carefully .
Revere the Prophet one and all.
As for war,there are many stories of Propehts going to war,an example is Propeht Solomon as.As you term the word booty is also shared amngst the votors.
As for slaves,Islam ordered that slavery should be cast aside slwoly and surely.
Prophet Muhammad saw had many wives and loved each one.
Only Islam has it in the HOLY QURAN that prohibit the number of woman a man can marry.
NO OTHER RELIGION PLACES HIS OBLIGATION.
It is a divine command.And cannot be broken.
So inshallah,do read more of the two sites i have given,for all your accusation there are answers and assuredly if you go there.
Also it is interesting to note that you claim to be a apostate.
May i ask you a simple question..
Do trees talk?
bismillah here bismillah there.. wtf?? arab forum ar?
ok laa.. quran is holy ok...
everyone here in forums is muslims now.. happy? go away ok...
Oh btw.. its versed out in the quran... only Allah gives wisdom and hidayah to ppl he wishes to give to...
SO not my fault if im not a muslim... or anyone else for tat matter...becos ur god duwan to give... tooooooooo badd....
i got a fifty year old uncle....
any muslims with a 10 yr old child...okla..12 la... wishes to marry her off to my uncle?? -
do trees talk? do cats talk? do computer talks? do curtains talks? do car talks? do rose talks?
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Oh and please dont kill all of us here...
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i will stop my nonsense..
and the rest can actually argue with the fool...
seriously..u all wont gain anything... he only want virgins in heavens... -
Back to topic, I pray that Lina Joy would work something out....
Maybe seek religious asylum in USA... or elsewhere...
The law really sucks....
I mean, even in Quran it says, let them be with their own religion and let us be with us...
Still, i dunno why the courts wouldnt see that....
hmm.. strange.. syariah pass the case to the federal courts.... and federal say its syariah case... strange.. very strange....
all duwan to handle the controversy... -
The tudung itself is arabic in origin. Are you denying this?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
Tudung is a malay custom,not a arabic,for the arabic they require to cover the entire hair,for the malay culture we have various degrees of tudung. -
if federal court says can .. then the decision will be watershed?Originally posted by mhcampboy:hmm.. strange.. syariah pass the case to the federal courts.... and federal say its syariah case... strange.. very strange....
skully judge go out kenna stoned.
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obviosly they are scared of tat...Originally posted by Icemoon:if federal court says can .. then the decision will be watershed?
skully judge go out kenna stoned.
she didnt receive a fair trial in my opinion...
2 wolves... 1 lamb....
judging a lamb.... how?
besides... elections are coming... and the judges themselves are scared...
so much for being a judge.... when the verdict was out.... hundreds of ppl were outside the palaca of justice shouting glory to allah...
imagine if the verdict was for lina joy.... so scary... -
This point is strange.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Only Islam has it in the HOLY QURAN that prohibit the number of woman a man can marry.
NO OTHER RELIGION PLACES HIS OBLIGATION.
It is a divine command.And cannot be broken.
How come no other religion places this obligation AND YET they all practise monogamy?
PS: I mean a religious solemnised marriage, don't confuse with chinese taking concubines. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Either you are too imersed in your own self-deceptive perfect world, or you are purposeful dishonest with the actual facts on the ground.
Salaam,
Well i thank you for the lenghtly reply but it still dont answer the question to your accusation.
That Malays have abandoned our culture.
Can you pls provide some examples?
Also it is funny when you said Malays were more carefree in the past,can you give an example too.
Have you not noticed the difference in the lives of the Malay folks in the Malaysian States of Kelantan and Trengannu ?
Compare their carefree lives before the theocratic rule of Islamic PAS and that of their lives under Sharia' laws, with Moral Guardians snooping into the private lives of even married couples, segregating of families from swimming together in the beautiful beaches of the East Coast of Peninsular Malaysia.
Life under BN again for those in Trengannu has vastly improved after PAS was defeated, and comparing the lives of those living under BN modernity and PAS theocracy - is the lives of the Malays not obviously changed since Islam took a deviant route that imprisoned the Malays to a Religion that is not even of their own choosing - even when the Malaysian Constitution and ISLAM itself has guaranteed FREEDOM of Religion even to Muslims to leave.
What ever happened to the Multimedia super corridor since its loud publicity in the mid-1990s ?
And you do realise that Mahathir created the Mutimedia super corridor,enusred the survival of the Malaysian coutnry after the devastation economic impact.
Also i think that you need to find out more under the malaysian palns,the current one was number 9,so google for plan 1 to 8.
It remained a pipe-dream as there were not enough Bumiputras around that could make it work, and it depended on the likes of Mahathir's crony in Vincent Lim of Berjaya Group to make it work. Unfortunately, the Bumis were supposed to benefit with a bigger share, but there was simply non-existent qualifed Bumis to make it work.
How many actually graduated from UK out of the hundreds of Bumis that were sent there - with qualifications from the University of Malaya that are awarded based on fixed annual quota of passes reserved for Bumis and other Malaysian ethnic groups ?
Also,it s funny that you assert that Mahathir sent Malaysian to study only religious education.
Well i for one have relatives in Malasyia and they went to England to study Advaced science,accounting,teaching and many other fields.
Big deal if you are the ONLY ONE with relatives - out of how many in your family that have gone overseas and actually returned successfully, out of the hundreds that were sent to study sciences - and comparing to the thousands that were sent to dubious universities in the Middle-east that offer Religious Studies ?
Did you not read the quote from the Referenced Site that I offered and printed in Green ?
As for your assertion that Islam does not have punishemnt for apostates,then by the Quran there is not.
But besides the Quran we also have the Sunnah/hadith.
The teaching of th Propeht.
An exaple,the Quran command us to pray,but does not teach how,that is taught by the Angle gabriel thru the Propeht Muhammad saw.
Int he hadith there are stories of apostates who are killed.
Let me give an exaple,there is a clan of pagan who wishes to convert to Islam and after conversion,the community fell sick,so the Propeht told them to drink the urine of camels,after which they were cured,,but after being cured they apostatized and murdered the entire clan of the camels keepers.
They were all killed.
Of course it is debatable whether they were killed due to murder or apostatees.
But Inshallah i shall find others..
Read again and it clearly showed the teaching of the Prophet that no one - not even a Muslim - is allowed to punish another Muslim if a decision is made to leave Islam.
What nonsense are you spouting ?
If the Koran is the inspiration from GOD and is the Words from GOD, why should there be ''the Sunnah/hadith. The teaching of th Propeht'' ?
If it is the teachings of the Prophet, he is only a Blessed MAN - but still a MAN, a Human Being, like anyone of us ?
The words were not written by him, as he was illiterate but by scribes; and even he could not read what the scribe had written, can anything that is attributed to be his but written by others be accurate ?
It is simple foolishness to place anyone's Life and Future, and to hold to ransom the Other's Lives on this basis ? -
If you must quote from my post and give a reply, at least do so with some accuracy to prove your sincerity in wanting to engage correctly the issues that you are attending to - can you even understand this simple courtesy ?
Either you are attempting to be continuous deceitful in avoiding the obvious, or you are simply crude in your efforts to deceive yourself from the truth.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Original post by Atobe:continuation
Why Google it ?
Why not reveal your thought process in your understanding of what you have Googled, and allow us to see the brilliance of your understanding concerning ''The corruption of the other book,the OT and NT are plain for all to see'' ?
What is plain for you is simply due to the fact that your mind is simply plain, and aligned to see only in a preferred plain manner ?
Can ''plain light'' bend by itself ?
Why keep only 1 out of 5 holy books ?
Surely there must be something wrong with the other 4 books ?
The problem with unthinking and blind theoretical cleverness is that it becomes self-deceiving that leads to in-breeding a self-righteous belief; and inbreeding is known to lead to some very unhealthy consequences - as it is against the Law of Nature.
I do not wish to defend the Christian faith, nor Judaism, nor any Religion, but suffice it to say that your condemnation of the Old Testament and even the New Testament is simple stupidity as can only happen from the described false sense of superiority due to the inbreeding of self-deception.
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Salaam,
This is a reply towards your reference that the other 8 member of the judges are incompetent or bias.
So all i cna say is,can you read thier minds or know their heart?
Do you also know the heart of the chrisitan judge?
Is he also likeiwse bias?
We cannot know he hearts of men but their decision are their not ours,their feeling are their not ours.
The decision of all the 3 justices (2 Muslim and 1 non-Muslim) were written, and is there a need to second guess all of them ?
The choice of words in stating the preferred course of decision or non-decision is obvious from the written statements made for all to study.
Are you so confused to understand the printed words, or have you been so immersed in Religious Studies that make your mind numbed to the Realities of the World ?
The following are the printed statement from the 3 Justices as reported by The Star of Malaysia:
Statements from the two Judges::
CJ: NRDÂ’s requirement is reasonable
PUTRAJAYA: Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim has ruled that the National Registration Department had reasonably required Lina Joy to get a certificate of apostasy from the Syariah Court.
This would allow the court to proceed to make a deletion (of the word ‘Islam’) from her identity card.
The top judge also ruled that since the Syariah Court had the jurisdiction over cases involving conversion to Islam, it should, by implication, have the power to decide on apostasy matters.
“I do not see any defect in the 1999 Federal Court judgement in the case of Soon Singh (which decided on the same grounds and which led to the provision for Muslims to state their religion in their identity card).
“To say that she is not under the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court – because she no longer professes Islam – is not appropriate,” said Ahmad Fairuz in his 41-page judgment.
He added that the way one leaves a religion is set by the religion itself.
“No one is stopping her from marrying. She is merely required to fulfil certain obligations, for the Islamic authorities to confirm her apostasy, before she embraces Christianity.
“In other words, one cannot embrace or leave a religion according to one’s whims and fancies.”
He said a mere statutory declaration that one has renounced Islam is not sufficient to remove the word “Islam” from a Muslim person’s identity card.
“This is because apostasy is an issue dealing with Islamic laws.
“Therefore, the NRD has adopted the policy that requires verification by the religious authorities or the Syariah Court before the department can delete the word.
“Therefore, I agree with the Court of Appeal’s majority judgment that the NRD’s policy is completely reasonable,” said Ahmad Fairuz.
If a formal statutory declaration of renouncing islam is not sufficient to amount to apotasy, what further actions will it require the two Justices to qualify that it is sufficient for apotasy to have occurred ?
Even the dissenting Chief Justice of Sabah and Sarawak had given his learned observation that the Sharia Court is not even empowered by the Malaysian Constitution to judge on apotasy in the Federal Territories, how will the two Justices expect Lina Joy to obtain such a judgement and certificate of apotasy ?
Even the dissenting judge had indicated that the Act of Apotasy itself is impossible to be performed by any right minded law abiding citizen, as to force one to commit apotasy is by itself a crime.
Is this the kind of law that is sanctioned by the Blessed Prophet in his teaching, which clearly state that - even Muslims are allowed to leave Islam without punishment by fellow Muslims, as judgement will come when one face his Maker on Judgement Day - (see my quote in green in the preceding post).
Are these 2 judges being good Muslim by shirking their duties ?
If all the three judges are trained to the same professional standards in Law, why will one dissenting judge provide such clear and obvious reasons that even logic cannot deny; and yet the majority decision from the majority of two judges have reasons that are simply too weak and reveal their deference to a religion which both of them are a party to ?
continue below -
continuation
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Is not the understanding of your Blessed Prophet based on what you wish to understand, as you have similarly avoided to address the issues by ni tpicking with your replies by avoiding issues that you have no answer for ?
As for your "knowledge" on apostasy in Islam,it is what you wish to understand not the complete picture.
google for it..LOLOL...
Has anyone made any noise about anyone's name used by the Press ? It seems that you are the only petty one.
As for the referenc to using Lina Joy converted name,i wold say it is simply hyprocrisy.
The western media choose not to uese John Walker Muslim name,any reason why?
Would you make noise if they use Lina Joy old name?
Why are you fixxated by the superficial and the petty ?
If one is to make noise about a name, it will be yours - and can one blame you for your pettiness when you choose to be a ''Zuki - flim'' ?
The are embracers of Islam for a longer period than the Malays in Southeast Asia, and if you believe that their practices is their own culture and not Islam, that shows your deceitful self-denial of the dark side of Islam as practised in backward communities steeped in the Islamic values.
As for the action of the muslim in Afghan/Iraq and so on,we can simply say that what hey do is in their own culture not what in Islam.
If you believe that such abusive practises are imposed on their women based on their culture, are the Muslims in Southeast Asia not similarly mindless imitating the cultures of these Conservative Muslim countries that imposes severe restrictions on their Muslim Women ?
You ought to do a ''Reality Check'' of what is prescribed by Islamic Theory in the various God inspire and Man inspired holy books, are not exactly what is practised by the Islamic Male Dominate Societies in the various conservatively Islamic countries of Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, the Arabic States in the Middle-east, Pakistan, Northern Africa. With the only exception being the progressive secular Muslim state of Turkey - and even then there are Islamic hardliners pushing to change this secular status; and already imposing Islamic rules and regulations on the liberal and modern Turkish women's appearance in Public.
Another exaple of assimilitaing Islam wihout losing their culture
The laws of Islam is clear regarding murder of muslim,man or women.
In Islam a woman who works need not share her money for the family,the man must be the one who support.
In Islma if a woman want a baby but the man cannot give one,the woman has the right of divorce.
You are an expert at being deceitful and 'flim flam' your way through your arguments.
there are many more laws in Islam that run counter to what is practised in the culture.
An exple in this malay community,when we marry a sum maybe 10 to 50 dollars is used to soleminized the marriage,but the culture dictates that a LARGER sum is given to the female..maybe 8K to 20K.
So culture and Islam is mixed.
If culture and Islam is mixed, it already proves that Malays have mindlessly adopted foreign religion with its accompanying culture that is totally foreign to this South-east Asian region.
Only the self-deceiving, and those with a simple mind will believe that his is the last for all mankind.
And we already know that Islam is the final religion,no toehr will come from Allah.
It is the seal,while the other book are for one race only.
Islam is for all of mankind.
Like the Jews believing themselves to be the Chosen Race of GOD, what else can come from such empty and arrogant boasts but to result in absurd abuses and disrespect towards others - their culture, their religious beliefs, their philosophies, politics, and simply a way of Life.
Are you not already contravening the Prophet's teaching of tolerance and respect towards other Religions, when you believe that yours is the last of all and the only True Religion ?
It is sheer conceited and self-delusionary deception.
How pitiful that a Holy Man respected as a chosen one, will need a physical flame to remind him of his own position ?
And piety is not for man to judge but Allah,we do and follow Allah commandemnt as best we can.
We make decision based on our own,the choices we make we know WILL ENSURE OUR DAMNATION OR SALVATION.
LEt me narate a story.
One time a woman was walking in the street and a fight ensues for her.
Afraid she runs into a mosque.
The Imam a yound man told her to leave for it is unseemly for a man and woman to leave.
She pleaded for safety and so they stayed the night together at different corners.
He read the Quran by candlelight and every so often he placed his hand over the light.After a time he removed his hand and placed it back again.
the woman was curious as to why but forbear and did not ask then.
In the morning when it is safe,the Imam asked her to leave beforet the morning prayers,she did but asked him why did he do what he did.
He replied,i am a man and you are a woman,ill thought came to me and so i placed my hand over the fire and thought to myself,if just being near the fire is painful to bear,what more so will the fire of hell feesl like if i rape the woman?
So it forbearance and love and fear of Allah,to remove your lust for a greater reward..
Inshallah
It simply shows the shallowness of the human spirit that will even be tempted by the sight of a woman in distress, and will even dare to be tempted with the thought of raping a helpless woman that came for help.
Is this the hallmark of the many incidents in the largely Malay communities - where incest occur so frequently, and abusing helpless children under their guardianship ?
There must be something inherently wrong when despite being nurtured in the Holy Environment of a Mosque, the human weakness can be so easily aroused by the sight of a helpless woman.
It is little wonder that the Muslims Men have to insist that women cover themselves totally and be like a innate furniture piece; as this is never expected of the women folks in the other Relgiious Communities. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
It is for you to show where the other Holy Books are mistaken compared to your arrogant assumption that the Koran is the one and only perfect Holy Book.
Salaam,
I asked you to google for it for knowledge is more valuable when one goes thru the pain for it.
To be spoon fed wiht knowledge is just like memorizing wihout understandng.
So searh google and learn for your own sake.
And for muslim,it is always clear to all of other faith that we revere them but also say plainly that their book are corrupted by man.
So if you so wish it google for it.
It seems that you are the one who is avoiding the issues raised with your arrogant disrespec that is totally in contrast to the teachings of the Prophet in requiring His faithful followers to respect all other Relgions and not to indulge in useless envy or comparisons.
I have shown you the following and you have cleverly refused to address the issues raised.
Try absorbing this again, which was extracted and posted earlier from one who seems to be more knowledgeable:
The QurÂ’an gives to responsible dissent the status of a fundamental right.
In exercise of their powers, therefore, neither the legislature nor the executive can demand unquestioning obedience...The Prophet, even though he was the recipient of Divine revelation, was required to consult the Muslims in public affairs. Allah addressing the Prophet says: “...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And...when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah” [22].
Since the principle of mutual consultation (“shura”) is mandatory [23], it is a Muslim’s fundamental right, as well as responsibility, to participate in as many aspects of the community’s life as possible. The Qur’anic proclamation in Surah 2: Al-Baqarah: 256, “There shall be no coercion in matters of faith” [24] guarantees freedom of religion and worship. This means that, according to Qur’anic teaching, non-Muslims living in Muslim territories should have the freedom to follow their own faith-traditions without fear or harassment. A number of Qur’anic passages state clearly that the responsibility of the Prophet Muhammad is to communicate the message of God and not to compel anyone to believe [25]. The right to exercise free choice in matters of belief is unambiguously endorsed by the Qur’an [26] which also states clearly that God will judge human beings not on the basis of what they profess but on the basis of their belief and righteous conduct, as indicated by Surah 2: Al-Baqarah: 62 which says:
Those who believe (in the QurÂ’an) And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), And the Christians and the Sabians, Any who believe in God And the Last Day, And work righteousness, Shall have their reward With the Lord: on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The QurÂ’an recognizes the right to religious freedom not only in the case of other believers in God, but also in the case of not-believers in God (if they are not aggressing upon Muslims) [27].
In the context of the human right to exercise religious freedom, it is important to mention that the Qur’anic dictum, “Let there be no compulsion in religion” [28] applies not only to non- Muslims but also to Muslims. While those who renounced Islam after professing it and then engaged in “acts of war” against Muslims were to be treated as enemies and aggressors, the Qur’an does not prescribe any punishment for non-profession or renunciation of faith. The decision regarding a person’s ultimate destiny in the hereafter rests with God.
The right to freedom includes the right to be free to tell the truth. The Qur’anic term for truth is “Haqq” which is also one of God’s most important attributes. Standing up for the truth is a right and a responsibility which a Muslim may not disclaim even in the face of the greatest danger or difficulty While the Qur’an commands believers to testify to the truth, it also instructs society not to harm persons so testifying [29].