Originally posted by TCH05:
1) What it means is that the price of PORK in Gemany are selling below the farmer REAL cost and the reason why the farmers can afford do it is because they are getting subsidies from the government who is using the income tax revenue to pay for the subsidies.
2) May I know what are you trying to tell us with that supply and demand curve because in the real world, it can never be a straight lines and since farm subsidy (which will affect the selling price) is regulated by government hence I cannot see how you can represented it such simply S&D chart.
1) Whether the REAL cost is above the global market price or not, is irrelevant to the discussion about the price of pork, because only one price clears the market
it's the global market price for pork. If the price of pork in the global market is $30 per kg, the pig farmer can only sell at $30 per kg to clear the market. If the
government removes the subsidies totally, the REAL cost of production of pork ends up being $100 per kg.
Do you think suppliers will pay $100 per kg to the pig farmer when they can source for cheaper alternatives in the world market at $30 per kg?
Subsidies is an act of protectionism, because the government deems that the particular industry is critical to it's future survival and self sustenance.
2) Whether it's curved or straight line, the basic principles of demand and supply is the same. Maybe you can tell us what purpose be it if the demand & supply is
not a straight line?
Originally posted by maurizio13:
1) Whether the REAL cost is above the global market price or not, is irrelevant to the discussion about the price of pork, because only one price clears the market
it's the global market price for pork. If the price of pork in the global market is $30 per kg, the pig farmer can only sell at $30 per kg to clear the market. If the
government removes the subsidies totally, the REAL cost of production of pork ends up being $100 per kg.
Do you think suppliers will pay $100 per kg to the pig farmer when they can source for cheaper alternatives in the world market at $30 per kg?
Subsidies is an act of protectionism, because the government deems that the particular industry is critical to it's future survival and self sustenance.
2) Whether it's curved or straight line, the basic principles of demand and supply is the same. Maybe you can tell us what purpose be it if the demand & supply is
not a straight line?
1) What is the point of tell us that pork in Germany in cheaper than Singapore and at the same time refuses to acknowledge the subsidies the farmers are getting from the government to keep the price of pork competitive?
Why not talk about the petrol in Saudi Arabia, their pump price is about S$0.20 per litre, or 10% of what we are paying and say that it is irrelevent if they are selling below global market price etc.
And btw, what is the latest Global market price for PORK today? (Please dont quote pork belly because that is just a section of pig)
2) You lack of understanding and knowledge is non of my business.
Originally posted by TCH05:
1) What is the point of tell us that pork in Germany in cheaper than Singapore and at the same time refuses to acknowledge the subsidies the farmers are getting from the government to keep the price of pork competitive?
Why not talk about the petrol in Saudi Arabia, their pump price is about S$0.20 per litre, or 10% of what we are paying and say that it is irrelevent if they are selling below global market price etc.
And btw, what is the latest Global market price for PORK today? (Please dont quote pork belly because that is just a section of pig)
2) You lack of understanding and knowledge is non of my business.
1) Huh? You are really clueless in economics.
You are comparing 2 different issues altogether, distorting facts to win an argument again.
You are comparing with direct subsidies of $0.20 per litre to lower the global market price of petrol.
The global price of petrol in Saudi Arabia is say $2.00 per litre, then the government gives it a subsidy of $0.20 to lower the cost.
The local petrol industry is not producing at $4.00 per litre and the government subsidises it to protect the local industry.
With
Subsidies given to producers (local pig farmers) to make them more competitive in the global market.
The cost of pork is say $100 per pig, the global market price is say $30 per pig.
The government needs to protect it's local pig industry to be self sufficient, therefore it subsidises the pig farmers so that it will cost $30 instead of $100.
These are 2 different issues.
You fail to understand the law of one price in global trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_one_price
2) Suggest you ask someone unbias to read it and see if there is any logic in your points. You just argue to win compromising your own logic.
Originally posted by maurizio13:
1) Huh? You are really clueless in economics.
You are comparing 2 different issues altogether, distorting facts to win an argument again.
You are comparing with direct subsidies of $0.20 per litre to lower the global market price of petrol.
The global price of petrol in Saudi Arabia is say $2.00 per litre, then the government gives it a subsidy of $0.20 to lower the cost.
The local petrol industry is not producing at $4.00 per litre and the government subsidises it to protect the local industry.
With
Subsidies given to producers (local pig farmers) to make them more competitive in the global market.
The cost of pork is say $100 per pig, the global market price is say $30 per pig.
The government needs to protect it's local pig industry to be self sufficient, therefore it subsidises the pig farmers so that it will cost $30 instead of $100.
These are 2 different issues.
You fail to understand the law of one price in global trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_one_price
2) Suggest you ask someone unbias to read it and see if there is any logic in your points. You just argue to win compromising your own logic.
The petrol in Saudi Arabia and the pork in Germany are artifically cheap because of government subsidies. So they are pointless to be use as examples to compare to what we are paying here in Singapore.
You talk about global market price for pork, I am asking you, how much is the global market price for pork right now?
Originally posted by TCH05:
The petrol in Saudi Arabia and the pork in Germany are artifically cheap because of government subsidies. So they are pointless to be use as examples to compare to what we are paying here in Singapore.
You talk about global market price for pork, I am asking you, how much is the global market price for pork right now?
Like I said before, those 2 issues are distinct and different. Please read and try to understand.
Instead of insisting to win the argument and abandoning all logic.
Whether the REAL cost is above the global market price or not, is irrelevant to the discussion about the price of pork, because only one price clears the market
it's the global market price for pork. If the price of pork in the global market is $30 per kg, the pig farmer can only sell at $30 per kg to clear the market. If the
government removes the subsidies totally, the REAL cost of production of pork ends up being $100 per kg.
Do you think suppliers will pay $100 per kg to the pig farmer when they can source for cheaper alternatives in the world market at $30 per kg?
Subsidies is an act of protectionism, because the government deems that the particular industry is critical to it's future survival and self sustenance.
I am not a pork seller, if you wish to engage in this trade, suggest you consult the pork supplier.
Originally posted by TCH05:
1) I am not sure what you have studied in your university. From the way you are questioning me, it looks like you are someone who is only seeing things on the surface without asking why and how this can happen.
You keep telling us that the price of pork in Germany is cheaper than Singapore, but did you ask yourself how this can happen when :
a) The cost of labour in Indonesia, Brazil or China is a tiny fraction of what the Germans are paid in Germany.
b) Singapore doesnt have import duties for pork
c) The cost of running a pig farm in tropical region is cheaper than Germany because they dont need heater to keep the pig warm.
2) I am not surprise that you are using the economic textbook like a Bible or Quran The only differende is, people do interpret the Bible or Quran differently and wrongly, and thats why we have so much violence in this world today.
Talking about economic textbook, you might want to look under the section which they explain about different type of supply and demand graph and look for one where price is regulated by the government.
Are we talking about pork or deer meat?
Just to inform everyone, I made a mistake in the cheaper part. I just compared the price of minced pork in cold storage vs in Germany again. In Germany, it was about 3 euros for 500g in the supermarket, that means $13.20 per kg. Cold Storage here sells for $13.10 per kg. So it is about the same price.
Now considering my mistake, I'm now wondering why TCH continuously tries to defend his point that because farmers receive subsidies, the price of pork is cheaper there than Singapore. Seems like he only take information for granted.
farmers in Germany are getting about €10,000,000,000 worth of financial aid from the government each year and that is the reason why the pork prices in Germany can be cheaper than in Singapore
He just likes to defend a wrong point at all costs.
Part 2:
Why talk about textbooks? Because you don't even understand the basic concepts of economics. Simple as that. The graph I put on was from wikipedia, on taxes and subsidies. And yes, taxes and subsidies are regulations by the government.
Originally posted by eagle:Just to inform everyone, I made a mistake in the cheaper part. I just compared the price of minced pork in cold storage vs in Germany again. In Germany, it was about 3 euros for 500g in the supermarket, that means $13.20 per kg. Cold Storage here sells for $13.10 per kg. So it is about the same price.
Now considering my mistake, I'm now wondering why TCH continuously tries to defend his point that because farmers receive subsidies, the price of pork is cheaper there than Singapore. Seems like he only take information for granted.
He just likes to defend a wrong point at all costs.
Part 2:
Why talk about textbooks? Because you don't even understand the basic concepts of economics. Simple as that. The graph I put on was from wikipedia, on taxes and subsidies. And yes, taxes and subsidies are regulations by the government.
He is the typical win at all cost person, even at the expense of compromising his logic in public.
Originally posted by eagle:Just to inform everyone, I made a mistake in the cheaper part. I just compared the price of minced pork in cold storage vs in Germany again. In Germany, it was about 3 euros for 500g in the supermarket, that means $13.20 per kg. Cold Storage here sells for $13.10 per kg. So it is about the same price.
Now considering my mistake, I'm now wondering why TCH continuously tries to defend his point that because farmers receive subsidies, the price of pork is cheaper there than Singapore. Seems like he only take information for granted.
He just likes to defend a wrong point at all costs.
Part 2:
Why talk about textbooks? Because you don't even understand the basic concepts of economics. Simple as that. The graph I put on was from wikipedia, on taxes and subsidies. And yes, taxes and subsidies are regulations by the government.
The farm subsidies and the artificially low pork price part are not mistakes, your pork price comparison is a mistake.
You are contradicting yourself by using a "perfect competition" supply and demand model to present your case on EU farm subsidies and the price of german pork, and at the same time acknowledging that subsdies are regulated by the government.
Thats your mistake again, not mine.
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Like I said before, those 2 issues are distinct and different. Please read and try to understand.Instead of insisting to win the argument and abandoning all logic.
Whether the REAL cost is above the global market price or not, is irrelevant to the discussion about the price of pork, because only one price clears the market
it's the global market price for pork. If the price of pork in the global market is $30 per kg, the pig farmer can only sell at $30 per kg to clear the market. If the
government removes the subsidies totally, the REAL cost of production of pork ends up being $100 per kg.
Do you think suppliers will pay $100 per kg to the pig farmer when they can source for cheaper alternatives in the world market at $30 per kg?
Subsidies is an act of protectionism, because the government deems that the particular industry is critical to it's future survival and self sustenance.
I am not a pork seller, if you wish to engage in this trade, suggest you consult the pork supplier.
I guess you will need to find out why Eagle is talking about German pork when we are talking about inflation in Singapore first, before you can understand the logic behind what I am talking about.
Originally posted by TCH05:
The farm subsidies and the artificial lower price part are not a mistake, you pork price is a mistake.
You are contradicting yourself by using a "perfect competition" supply and demand model to present your case on EU farm subsidies and the price of german pork, and at the same time acknowledging that subsdies are regulated by the government.
Thats your mistake again, not mine.
That was my mistake, and you absorb mistakes like no one's business. Who knows whether your rubbish posts come from mistakes you took from elsewhere without really understanding? Again, isn't that uniquely you, to defend a wrong point, even though I said it, at all costs?
Similarly, just to make sure you did not read things blindly, please explain what is the difference between the supply and demand model along with subsides for the 4 different systems. And which system do you think we are talking about here? Finally, do you think there are any differences in the pork between the different farms when buying from the supermarkets in Germany (if you have even been there)?
Originally posted by eagle:That was my mistake, and you absorb mistakes like no one's business. Who knows whether your rubbish posts come from mistakes you took from elsewhere without really understanding? Again, isn't that uniquely you, to defend a wrong point, even though I said it, at all costs?
Similarly, just to make sure you did not read things blindly, please explain what is the difference between the supply and demand model along with subsides for the 4 different systems. And which system do you think we are talking about here? Finally, do you think there are any differences in the pork between the different farms when buying from the supermarkets in Germany (if you have even been there)?
Please dont go OT. Lets get back to our discussion on inflation.
Originally posted by eagle:Germans pay quite a bit less for pork in the supermarket as compared to us although their gst is 19%.
And erm... willing to pay more and paying much lower... no link between the two leh...
Eagle has admitted that the above statement is rubbish.
Am I right Eagle?
Originally posted by TCH05:
I guess you will need to find out why Eagle is talking about German pork when we are talking about inflation in Singapore first, before you can understand the logic behind what I am talking about.
I guess you need to read back again.
maurizio13 started with
"But how come other countries facing the same
commodity prices are having lower inflation
rate than Singapore?"
sbst275 replied to the bolded ones with:
"
do you know that all along we're paying much lower for items like
pork? Even the Phillippinos are willing to pay more for the
pork than us!"
my reply to him about the same bolded words with:
"Germans pay quite a bit less for pork in the supermarket as
compared to us although their gst is 19%."
And out pops a TCH05 with
"I believe the German farmers receive close to €10 billion
worth of financial aid from the government each year."
which was still ok
and this TCH05 continues to divert the thread by asking:
"Want to make a guess where these farm subsidies come
from?"
with totally no link on inflation at all.
Hmmm... I think we need to ask why TCH05 suddenly talks about subsidies in a thread on inflation.
Originally posted by TCH05:
Eagle has admitted that the above statement is rubbish.
Am I right Eagle?
If that statement is rubbish, doesn't that shows worse of you?
What I am trying to highlight to you is that the farmers in Germany are getting about €10,000,000,000 worth of financial aid from the government each year and that is the reason why the pork prices in Germany can be cheaper than in Singapore, where 100% of our pork are imported from countries where they dont have such generous farm subsidies.
What does that make you? Rubbish collector?
Originally posted by eagle:I guess you need to read back again.
maurizio13 started with
"But how come other countries facing the same commodity prices are having lower inflation rate than Singapore?"sbst275 replied to the bolded ones with:
" do you know that all along we're paying much lower for items like pork? Even the Phillippinos are willing to pay more for the pork than us!"my reply to him about the same bolded words with:
"Germans pay quite a bit less for pork in the supermarket as compared to us although their gst is 19%."And out pops a TCH05 with
"I believe the German farmers receive close to €10 billion worth of financial aid from the government each year."
which was still okand this TCH05 continues to divert the thread by asking:
"Want to make a guess where these farm subsidies come from?"
with totally no link on inflation at all.Hmmm... I think we need to ask why TCH05 suddenly talks about subsidies in a thread on inflation.
You mean you still cant see the link between government subsidies and inflations?
Originally posted by TCH05:
You mean you still cant see the link between government subsidies and inflations?
Kindly tell us the link between subsidies for German Farmers on pork prices vs Singapore Inflation
Originally posted by eagle:Kindly tell us the link between subsidies for German Farmers on pork prices vs Singapore Inflation
Supposed if the EU government stop giving out farm subsidies, the local farming industry will collapse and eventually, germans will have to import their food stuffs from overseas. Which means, they will be fighting for supplies with importing countries like Singapore, which will result in a shortage of supply and price hike.
Supposed if the german government increase their subsidies to farmers, the price of products will become cheaper and make imported products less attractive, which then will create less demand for non EU agriculture products, or the germans might increase their export overseas.
Originally posted by TCH05:
Supposed if the EU government stop giving out farm subsidies, the local farming industry will collapse and eventually, germans will have to import their food stuffs from overseas. Which means, they will be fighting for supplies with importing countries like Singapore, which will result in a shortage of supply and price hike.
Supposed if the german government increase their subsidies to farmers, the price of products will become cheaper and make imported products less attractive, which then will create less demand for non EU agriculture products, or the germans might increase their export overseas.
I'm laughing at the idioticity of this post. Nvm, I'm too lazy to explain to you why. Shall let others look at this and laugh at your simplicity too.
Originally posted by eagle:I'm laughing at the idioticity of this post. Nvm, I'm too lazy to explain to you why. Shall let others look at this and laugh at your simplicity too.
Isnt that obvious that undergrad like you have no clue about how international trade function these days. May I suggest
that you buy yourself this book to enrich your knowledge on world trade before making a fool out of yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_is_Flat
Supposed if the EU government stop giving out farm subsidies, the local farming industry will collapse and eventually, germans will have to import their food stuffs from overseas. Which means, they will be fighting for supplies with importing countries like Singapore, which will result in a shortage of supply and price hike.
Supposed if the german government increase their subsidies to farmers, the price of products will become cheaper and make imported products less attractive, which then will create less demand for non EU agriculture products, or the germans might increase their export overseas.
Originally posted by TCH05:
Isnt that obvious that undergrad like you have no clue about how international trade function these days. May I suggestthat you buy yourself this book to enrich your knowledge on world trade before making a fool out of yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_is_Flat
Let me point out 2 points how idiotic your post was
1) We are talking about current inflation in Feb 08, about current affairs
All you are talking about is "Supposed if", things that have not happened, and does not seem that it will happen in the near future. Please tell us how your "Supposed if" situations are related to this thread on current prices.
2) We are talking about why is there high inflation in Singapore as compared to the lower inflation in other countries posted by maurizio13.
Yet now you are talking about how EU's "supposed if" removal of subsidies can possibly cause inflation worldwide. Again, show us how your points are related to this point made by maurizio13.
The above 2 points show that you don't even understand what is going on in this thread at all. Furthermore, you talked out of point, and point the finger at someone else for that crime. While everyone of us here were talking about current affairs, you came out with some unrelated subsidies post and feebly attempt to justify the relation with some "supposed if" statements. Just because I don't want to point out earlier to you doesn't mean you can strut around thinking you are still correct.
Seriously, I think you should get this book on elementary english comprehension for yourself. At least you could learn not to go out of point, and learn not to misunderstand others so much that you have to put words into their mouth and ask them why.
Also, you should get Essentials of Economics to understand how wrong your ideas were.
Originally posted by eagle:Let me point out 2 points how idiotic your post was
1) We are talking about current inflation in Feb 08, about current affairs
All you are talking about is "Supposed if", things that have not happened, and does not seem that it will happen in the near future. Please tell us how your "Supposed if" situations are related to this thread on current prices.
2) We are talking about why is there high inflation in Singapore as compared to the lower inflation in other countries posted by maurizio13.
Yet now you are talking about how EU's "supposed if" removal of subsidies can possibly cause inflation worldwide. Again, show us how your points are related to this point made by maurizio13.
The above 2 points show that you don't even understand what is going on in this thread at all. Furthermore, you talked out of point, and point the finger at someone else for that crime. While everyone of us here were talking about current affairs, you came out with some unrelated subsidies post and feebly attempt to justify the relation with some "supposed if" statements. Just because I don't want to point out earlier to you doesn't mean you can strut around thinking you are still correct.
Seriously, I think you should get this book on elementary english comprehension for yourself. At least you could learn not to go out of point, and learn not to misunderstand others so much that you have to put words into their mouth and ask them why.Also, you should get Essentials of Economics to understand how wrong your ideas were.
1) Our discussion on EU farm subsidy all started because of EAGLE claims that the pork in Germany is cheaper than Singapore.
2) TCH assume that what Eagle claimed is right and try to highlight that it is due to the 10 billion euro EU farm subsidies the german farmers are getting, and that is why their pork can be competitive.
3) TCH then go on to ask Eagle, how can a german pork be cheaper when the cost of running a pig farm in Germany is so much higher compare to Indonesia, China and Brazil.
4) Eagle that admitted that what he claim about pork in germany being cheaper is rubbish.
5) Eagle then ask TCH to tell him the link between subsidies for German Farmers on pork prices vs Singapore Inflation
6) TCH explain
If the EU government stop giving out farm subsidies, the local farming industry will collapse and eventually, germans will have to import their food stuffs from overseas. Which means, they will be fighting for supplies with importing countries like Singapore, which will result in a shortage of supply and price hike.
If the german government increase their subsidies to farmers, the price of products will become cheaper and make imported products less attractive, which then will create less demand for non EU agriculture products, or the germans might increase their export overseas.
7) Eagle reply
I'm laughing at the idioticity of this post. Nvm, I'm too lazy to explain to you why. Shall let others look at this and laugh at your simplicity too.
8) TCH request Eagle to read up the book The World Is Flat to get some understanding on globalisation before making a fool out of himself.
9) Now Eagle start talking about current affair and call me name again.
Eagle, if you are not sure about what you are saying, please ask, and dont act like you know it all.
Please don't avoid my question and divert away, and answer exactly how your post on subsidies is related to this thread. Also, please explain how your "if" situations are related to current inflation in Singapore.
And please also explain "Eagle, if you are not sure about what you are saying, please ask, and dont act like you know it all." when I have asked you 2 questions (and you have quoted) and you avoided answering. Why bother requesting others to ask you questions when you could not even provide a satisfactory answer?
TCH, if you are still unsure on how your post started a totally unrelated and irrelevant discussion, please ask. We will all gladly point you in the right direction. Don't need to toot a horn here.
To be honest, Jan and Feb inflation is distorted by Chinese New Year.
PAP has nothing to worry about until double digits kick in.
"do you know the tax rate in Malaysia is 28% just to feed for the subsidy you are pushing the PAP for"
Err thats the top tier. I doubt that sbst makes that much money.
maurizio13, isnt CPIs based on different baskets of goods determined by different countries?