Peranakan Singaporeans, what are your views on LKY as baba?

• laurence82

  29 Jun 09, 00:39

  wow

  people use religion as a reason to hate race

  now people use LKY as a reason to hate race too

   

• novelltie

  29 Jun 09, 01:46

  my maternal grandfather married a peranakan; my paternal grandfather married a peranakan... both my grandfathers are china chinese...

  so my mum = one quarter peranakan, my dad = one quarter baba?

  then one quarter peranakan + one quarter baba =?

• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  29 Jun 09, 01:56

  Promote your own colonial angmoh language, force us to learn angmoh, suppress the dialect, destroy chinese schools, weaken my culture, talk cock say what make races fair.

  Connive with british to destroy the hokkien leader Lim Chin Siong.

  baba in land of hokkiens, malays, Tamils, feel insecure, promote fellow babas.

  Good.

  All very good, Harry.

  ROFL

  what language he use to write this post ah?

   

  BTW, any comments on how mandrin was forced upon a dialect speaking Chinese population and then told that that was their prescribed culture? 

• novelltie

  29 Jun 09, 02:04

  well, i think we needed a common language among chinese and mandarin was afterall the "common language" in China thus the implementation of the "speak mandarin" campaign.

  looking at today's situation; i guess the benefits supercedes the disadavantage... of course i picked up teochew from my grandparents so i speak both hokkien and teochew not so fluently... hahhaha...

• Atobe

  29 Jun 09, 05:31

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  ROFL

  what language he use to write this post ah?

   

  BTW, any comments on how mandrin was forced upon a dialect speaking Chinese population and then told that that was their prescribed culture? 

   

  MM LKY's search for the X-Factor had begun early in his political career as seen from some of the political statements printed:

   

  • "Three women were brought to the Singapore General Hospital, each in the same condition and needing a blood transfusion. The first, a Southeast Asian was given the transfusion but died a few hours later. The second, a South Asian was also given a transfusion but died a few days later. The third, an East Asian, was given a transfusion and survived. That is the X factor in development." - 27 December 1967

   

  What possibly could an East Asian woman possess that enable her to survive better than the Southeast Asian or South Asian women ?

   

• Atobe

  29 Jun 09, 05:32

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  ROFL

  what language he use to write this post ah?

   

  BTW, any comments on how mandrin was forced upon a dialect speaking Chinese population and then told that that was their prescribed culture? 

  
  Singlish ?

• Atobe

  29 Jun 09, 06:12

  Originally posted by Ah Chia:

  Peranakan Singaporeans, what are your views on Lee Kuan Yew as baba?

  Do you feel proud of him?

   

  I have always admired my father for his dedication to Singapore, his determination to do what is right, his courage in standing up to foreigners who try to tell us how to run our country.
  
  But my father was also the eldest son in a typical Peranakan family. He cannot even crack a soft-boiled egg - such things not being expected of men, especially eldest sons, in Peranakan families...

  http://hongjun.blogspot.com/2009/04/dr-lee-wei-ling

   

  A significant category of Chinese, although one not listed in the census reports, were the Baba Chinese or Straits Chinese.

  They were Chinese who after long residence in Southeast Asia spoke Malay or English as their first language, and whose culture contained elements from China, Southeast Asia, and sometimes Europe as well.

  An indication of the size of the Baba Chinese community was provided by the 1980 census report that 9 percent of Chinese families spoke English at home. Stereotypically the Baba were the offspring of Chinese migrants and local women. In the nineteenth century, they tended to be wealthier and better educated than the mass of immigrants and to identify more with Singapore and Southeast Asia than with China.

  In spite of their language, the Baba considered themselves Chinese, retained Chinese kinship patterns and religion, and even when speaking Malay used a distinct Baba dialect of Malay with many loan words from Hokkien.

  Never a large proportion of Singapore's Chinese population, in the late nineteenth century they took advantage of opportunities for education in English and promoted themselves as loyal to Britain.

  In Singapore, many Baba families spoke English as a first language and produced many of the leaders of Singapore's independent political movements, including Lee Kuan Yew.

  Although the Baba, in a sense, provided the model for the current Singaporean who is fluent in English and considers Singapore as home, the community fragmented in the early twentieth century as Chinese nationalism spread.

  After the 1920s its members gained no advantage, economic or political, from distinguishing themselves from the rest of the Chinese population and tended increasingly to become Chinese again, often learning to speak Chinese as adults. In the 1980s, Baba culture survived largely in the form of a well-known cuisine that mixed Chinese and Malay ingredients and in some families who continued to use English as the language of the home...

  http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+sg0044)

   

  What makes one a 'baba' or a 'nyonya' ?

  According to Answers.com - which provides comprehensive details that largely described a group of Chinese migrants as the 'Peranakans' - who have settled in the 'Nusantara region' during the Colonial era, assimilated into local communities, and have adopted partially or in full Malay customs.

  Those who have settled in the British Straits Settlement of Penang, Malacca and Singapore - are also called Straits Chinese.

  However, although the 'babas' and nyonyas' in the Peranakan community are mostly of Chinese origins, the term will also include those who arrived from India.

   

  Can LKY be considered to be a 'baba' - as a fourth generation son of an early immigrant from China ?

  References taken from his memoirs had shown that his 'Hakka' great-grandfather - Lee Bok Boon (born 1846) had emigrated to the Straits Settlement in 1862, and since had a blurred lineage leading to his own father.

  His mother born in 1907 and probably a third generation immigrant was already considered a "Hokkien Nyonya" - and was a housewife well known for her great culinary skills in Chinese cooking with a light blend of Malay recipes that has become a characteristic signature of the 'Baba-Nyonya' cuisines, and published in her own cook book.

  LKY could probably be considered a 'baba' - considering that by the time of his own generation, he could hardly speak a word of Hakka, and would have been subjected to the greater influence of his mother especially when his relationship with his father was known to be frosty - (from 'No Man is an Island' - James Minchin).

   

  At the end of the day, does it matter if he is a 'baba' or even belonging to any ethnic group, when he does not even acknowledge his own origins - as the son of a Salesman and a Housewife ?

  Does all this matter when he hold so dearly to his beliefs concerning the eugenics of the intelligent ?

   

   

• Fantagf

  29 Jun 09, 07:52

  chia, have u hatred for the Peranakan ?    lky though a Peranakan, he does not represent the whole Peranakan community, so don't drag the whole  Peranakan to be with LKY.

  Don't let your hatred for lky be an offence to the  Peranakan people by dragging them into the picture.

  Shake my head, really don't know what happen to your brain.   Perhaps, it needs some upgrading and getting rid of baggage for it to function well.

  I notice whenever there are any people related to LKY, you will just go ahead to just drag them in, like what you have been doing to the British.    

• p228

  29 Jun 09, 08:29

  Come on,

  Ah Chia must be Dr Chee Soon Juan in disguise !!!!

  HAHAHAHA

• Short Ninja

  29 Jun 09, 08:58

  I thought I read somwhere that he has Peranakan heritage only from his mother's side and so how does that make him a typical Baba? Something some Chinese Singaporeans wouldnt like to admit until very recently.

• Atobe

  29 Jun 09, 10:34

  Originally posted by p228:

  Come on,

  Ah Chia must be Dr Chee Soon Juan in disguise !!!!

  HAHAHAHA

  
  Come on... you do not need to bury your pick-axe into Dr Chee Soon Juan.

  Afterall, Dr Chee has stated openly in the High Court that he does not hate LKY but find LKY - a pitiable figure.

  Ah Chia despise LKY as much as he hates the PAP, the British and most of all the USA.

   

   

• Kachui

  29 Jun 09, 11:16

  Glad to see most people here are not as irrational as the TS...this kind of thinking leads to racism...such hate monger can be dangerous if there are too many around.

• Tranris

  29 Jun 09, 11:44

  Lee Kuan Yew: Race, Culture, Genes: http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/lib/ne/lky/raceculturegenes.pdf
  By Dr Michael D. Barr

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:07

  It is time for us to re examine the real and true history of Singapore.

  We cannot hide behind the self serving propaganda history of PAP any longer.

  The issues of the so-called baba clique led by Harry Lee, the destruction of the left wing in Singapore, the arrest of the hokkien leader Lim Chin Siong, the suppression of dialects, the english language policy, the marxist conspiracy.

  All of these events, all of these issues must be addressed.

  We cannot hide anymore.

   

• Stevenson101

  29 Jun 09, 12:09

  Originally posted by laurence82:

  wow

  people use religion as a reason to hate race

  now people use LKY as a reason to hate race too

   

  
  Wonder what they'd use to hate other races after LKY's stone cold.

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:12

  Wonder what they'd use to hate other races after LKY's stone cold.

  That is too narrow and a distraction and I didn't talk about hating other races.

  That is a lie.

  The issue is not about race.

  The issue is about WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN SINGAPORE FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS.

   

• Miracles&Prophecies

  29 Jun 09, 12:18

  I mean to disrespect,

  

  Recipe: Rujak (Hot, Spicy Fruit Salad)

  Categories: Salad

  Yield: 8 Servings

        1    Pomelo or ugli fruit or
             -- texas grapefruit (jeruk
             -- bali)
  

  1/2 Cucumber
  1/2 Pineapple

        2    Apples; granny smith or
             -- cox's (kedondong)
        2    Mangoes or slightly unripe
             -- pears
  

  -----------------FOR THE BUMBU----------------------

        1    Cabe rawit (capasicum
             -- frutescens; hot peppers -
             -- those from an ornamental
             -- pepper tree; according to
             -- the author; thai hot
             -- peppers are probably
             -- okay)
        1 sl Grilled terasi (a dark
             -- colored paste made from
             -- shrimp); optional
        4 oz Gula jawa (the sugar
             -- mentioned below)
      1/3    Cooking banana (known as
             -- 'stone banana'; chopped
             -- up,
             -- skin and all; and has
             -- many
             -- small crunchy seeds
             -- inside
             -- it); optional
          lg Pinch of salt
        1 tb Tamarind water (soak 1 oz of
             -- dried tamarind in about
             -- 1/2
             -- pint water)
  

  From: [email protected] (Joanne Spetz)

  Date: 25 Feb 1994 13:04:16 -0500 "At home we use fruit that is not fully ripe, such as a slightly unripe mango, because this has the right sourness and sharpness of taste. The best sugar to use is gula Jawa (brown sugar made from juice of the flower of the coconut palm. It is sold in hard cakes; the amount needed is cut off and crushed, or scraped off. Gula aren is similar, but comes from the sugar-palm. A general name for both types is gula merah, 'red sugar', and similar palm sugar are found elsewhere - e.g. jaggery in Burma and gula Malaka in Malaysia). However, I also use dark, soft, brown sugar or Demarara sugar, and either of these is quite satisfactory.

  In Indonesia, we would usually add also bengkuang (yam-bean) and jambu (guava or the fruit - not nut - of the cashew are types of jambu). Peel and segment the pomelo (or ugli, etc). Slice the cucumber; this may be peeled or not, as you prefer. Prepare the other fruit, washing and peeling as required, and cutting everything into small pieces. Put the pieces straight into a bowl of cold water with 1 tsp of salt. When you are ready to serve, drain off this water and pile all the fruit in a plate or bowl.

  For the bumbu: Pound all these, except the tamarind water, until they are smooth; add the water and mix well. You may need to add another tbsp of tamarind water. This bumbu should look like a fairly thick, sticky syrup. To serve, pour all the bumbu over the fruit and mix well; then serve and eat as you would an ordinary fruit salad. Alternatively, put the bumbu in its own small bowl, and let everyone help themselves."

• Kachui

  29 Jun 09, 12:27

  Originally posted by Ah Chia:

  That is too narrow and a distraction and I didn't talk about hating other races.

  That is a lie.

  The issue is not about race.

  The issue is about WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN SINGAPORE FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS.

   

  You said you didn't talk about hating other races...but you blamed the Peranakans for one of the reasons for Singapore to be "run to the ground" in your statement below.  And why mentioned about Peranakans in Malaysia (MCA)?  Are you inferring that the Peranakans in Malaysia are the cause of problems in Malaysia?  Please show statistics that Peranakans have held top positions civil service in Singapore for the past few decades in Singapore.

  Hitler and the Nazis blamed the Jews for the ills of their country...and that led to some of the most atrocious acts in History.

   

  Originally posted by Ah Chia:

  Prominent Peranakans of Malaysia and Singapore include Malaysian Chinese Association (MCA) ... For the last few decades in Singapore, the top positions in civil service, ... the Peranakans. That is one reason why Singapore has been run to the ground. ...

   

   

• Short Ninja

  29 Jun 09, 12:31

  Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

  I mean to disrespect,

  

  Recipe: Rujak (Hot, Spicy Fruit Salad)

  Categories: Salad

  Yield: 8 Servings

        1    Pomelo or ugli fruit or
  
                           -- texas grapefruit (jeruk
  
                           -- bali)
  
                

  1/2 Cucumber
  1/2 Pineapple

        2    Apples; granny smith or
  
                           -- cox's (kedondong)
  
                      2    Mangoes or slightly unripe
  
                           -- pears
  
                

  -----------------FOR THE BUMBU----------------------

        1    Cabe rawit (capasicum
  
                           -- frutescens; hot peppers -
  
                           -- those from an ornamental
  
                           -- pepper tree; according to
  
                           -- the author; thai hot
  
                           -- peppers are probably
  
                           -- okay)
  
                      1 sl Grilled terasi (a dark
  
                           -- colored paste made from
  
                           -- shrimp); optional
  
                      4 oz Gula jawa (the sugar
  
                           -- mentioned below)
  
                    1/3    Cooking banana (known as
  
                           -- 'stone banana'; chopped
  
                           -- up,
  
                           -- skin and all; and has
  
                           -- many
  
                           -- small crunchy seeds
  
                           -- inside
  
                           -- it); optional
  
                        lg Pinch of salt
  
                      1 tb Tamarind water (soak 1 oz of
  
                           -- dried tamarind in about
  
                           -- 1/2
  
                           -- pint water)
  
                

  From: [email protected] (Joanne Spetz)

  Date: 25 Feb 1994 13:04:16 -0500 "At home we use fruit that is not fully ripe, such as a slightly unripe mango, because this has the right sourness and sharpness of taste. The best sugar to use is gula Jawa (brown sugar made from juice of the flower of the coconut palm. It is sold in hard cakes; the amount needed is cut off and crushed, or scraped off. Gula aren is similar, but comes from the sugar-palm. A general name for both types is gula merah, 'red sugar', and similar palm sugar are found elsewhere - e.g. jaggery in Burma and gula Malaka in Malaysia). However, I also use dark, soft, brown sugar or Demarara sugar, and either of these is quite satisfactory.

  In Indonesia, we would usually add also bengkuang (yam-bean) and jambu (guava or the fruit - not nut - of the cashew are types of jambu). Peel and segment the pomelo (or ugli, etc). Slice the cucumber; this may be peeled or not, as you prefer. Prepare the other fruit, washing and peeling as required, and cutting everything into small pieces. Put the pieces straight into a bowl of cold water with 1 tsp of salt. When you are ready to serve, drain off this water and pile all the fruit in a plate or bowl.

  For the bumbu: Pound all these, except the tamarind water, until they are smooth; add the water and mix well. You may need to add another tbsp of tamarind water. This bumbu should look like a fairly thick, sticky syrup. To serve, pour all the bumbu over the fruit and mix well; then serve and eat as you would an ordinary fruit salad. Alternatively, put the bumbu in its own small bowl, and let everyone help themselves."

  I like Rujak for I am a Rojak made in Singapore

• Stevenson101

  29 Jun 09, 12:32

  Originally posted by Ah Chia:

  That is too narrow and a distraction and I didn't talk about hating other races.

  That is a lie.

  The issue is not about race.

  The issue is about WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN SINGAPORE FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS.

   

  
  You're the last person to complain about being narrow and of distraction, considering the way you handle your arguments.

  You did not talk about hating other races, but the information you hand out certainly infer that certain races are running Singapore into the ground.

  Just because you're not consciously doing it doesn't mean your actions do not create the effect.  

   

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:34

  You said you didn't talk about hating other races...but you blamed the Peranakans for one of the reasons for Singapore to be "run to the ground" in your statement below.

  I didn't say that. it was another guy from another site. I only quoted his views.

  Here is the site:

  span.sharedcopy_bookmarklet a { font-family: "Candara", "Lucida Grande", "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif; background: #ebebeb url(http://sharedcopy.com/images/favicon.gif) no-repeat 10px 50%; color: #000; padding: 6px 18px 6px 33px; margin: 5px; border: 1px #ccc solid; text-decoration: none; line-height: 30px; }

  February 19, 2009

  Peranakans – Going the way of the Dodo?

  Despite signs of revival since the 1980s, a gradual extinction of the Peranakan culture and lifestyle will probably take place in decades to come. The fast-dwindling Singaporeans, steeped in Peranakan culture and practices, are becoming an endangered species which may fade into oblivion within the next 120 years or so.

  Recommended by misty_cloud: "An interesting read on the origins of Peranakans. After the telecast of the Little Nonya TV series on Mediacorp Channel 8, there is this mad craze for "anything Peranakan" - from Peranakan food, music and fashion to history and tourism. An influx of visitors to Malacca to see for themselves the Peranakan culture.

  But as the article says, is this sustainable? What will happen after the craze dies off? Is a TV series enough to revive the interest in Peranakan culture and the willingness to preserve that for the future generations?

  Just some food for thought."

  Link

  Submitted by misty_cloud on February 17//3:12pm and published by tinkertailor ::

   

  Comments 1

  Endangered species? For goodness sake, Lee Kuan Yew practically filled the entire cabinet with inbred Peranakans. For the last few decades in Singapore, the top positions in civil service, statutory boards, armed forces, GLCs have all along been going disproportionately to the Peranakans. That is one reason why Singapore has been run to the ground.

  Lee Kuan Yew worked with the Japanese Kempeitai and later the British colonizers to suppress the non-Peranakan Chinese. That's why he has always been wary of non-Peranakan Chinese and could only entrust power to his own family members and his other Peranakan cronies.

  http://tomorrow.sg/archives/2009/02/17/peranakans__going_the_way_of_the.html

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:37

  You're the last person to complain about being narrow and of distraction, considering the way you handle your arguments.

  What do you mean?

  You are quite narrow in your views.

  I talk about Lee Kuan Yew's being baba and his politics and you link it with only race and not to broader issues.

  That is narrow in my opinion.

  Like I criticise Israel and you link it to anti-jew.

  Too narrow.

  Too narrow.

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:47

  Allegations by a user on Tomorrow.SG
  

  Endangered species?

  For goodness sake, Lee Kuan Yew practically filled the entire cabinet with inbred Peranakans.

  For the last few decades in Singapore, the top positions in civil service, statutory boards, armed forces, GLCs have all along been going disproportionately to the Peranakans.

  That is one reason why Singapore has been run to the ground.

  Lee Kuan Yew worked with the Japanese Kempeitai and later the British colonizers to suppress the non-Peranakan Chinese.

  That's why he has always been wary of non-Peranakan Chinese and could only entrust power to his own family members and his other Peranakan cronies.

  http://tomorrow.sg/archives/2009/02/17/peranakans__going_the_way_of_the.html

   

  Those who are knowledgeable on above allegations please comment.

  It is true or lies?

• Stevenson101

  29 Jun 09, 12:53

  Originally posted by Ah Chia:

  What do you mean?

  You are quite narrow in your views.

  I talk about Lee Kuan Yew's being baba and his politics and you link it with only race and not to broader issues.

  That is narrow in my opinion.

  Like I criticise Israel and you link it to anti-jew.

  Too narrow.

  Too narrow.

  
  Err no you got me mistaken with someone else. I did not say anything about your posts being anti jew.

• Ah Chia

  29 Jun 09, 12:55

  I did not say anything about your posts being anti jew.

  Just an analogy.

  Critique of Israel not anti-Semitism: Margolyes

  http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2009/05/

  The point that I am trying to make is Lee Kuan Yew's status as a baba and his politics.

  Where did he draw his power base from.

  Whom did he place in positions of power.

  And the effects of those policies on the rest of the Singapore people.

  It has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-baba or other racial discrimination.

  It is a study of history and politics in Singapore for the past 50 years.

  I am not a racist.

  I don't hold any bias or favour towards any particular race.