Correct or not, lets leave it to tomorrow. Like i said, i am only try to understand.
Originally posted by TTFU:But to sit idly by and allow one to be consumed by that evil -- that, I think, is an evil in itself.
So why even create humans in the first place ?
Didn't follow the thread so far, so if it's irrelevant to what you're saying, forgive me.
If i presume boldly that u meant God in that statement, i would think that he didnt zor bo, so to speak. He came down in the form of human flesh to take on the penalty of our sins. Jesus Christ came to proclaim peace and goodwill to all men. His atonement was the answer to the problem of sin in creation.
Originally posted by TTFU:God may be omnipotent and omnipresent, but in no way is he an illogical being. You cannot be omnipotent if you create beings of free will, because if you do, then you do not grant true free will among your creations.
The easiest way to see this is if you had a child, in all possible circumstances YOU MAY guide your child to grow up in a certain fashion, directing your child's thought process, but in the process you are constantly interfering with the child's own ability to decide on his or her own. Why do you think it is always taboo in all those movies about God about the infringement of free will? If God wanted to create creatures of free will, then he can no longer truly remain as omnipotent as he once was, he gave part of that up the moment he created humans.
People who say God is omnipotent and omnipresent do not clearly think about all the contradictions that rise with it and then we come into a full circle argument of how God is full of holes, when in fact the original statement is the one full of holes because most people can't see why he gave humans free will in the first place
I'm impressed that you've developed this insight.
The God i worship is omnipotent but there are somethings that He cannot do. For example, he cannot lie, he cannot swear by Himself (for there is no One greater than Himself), he also cannot make a square circle or create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift (because to do contradicts His very nature. The laws of logic reflect the way he thinks, not what He is governed by).
The problem of evil, that is being discussed in the thread so far, my first response would be "what evil?" If i ask what is evil, you might describe immoral violent acts (etc) to me, that typify the absence of good in those situations. But here, I ask, what makes us (including me) think that such acts qualify as "evil". Is there a category such as this in the framework that we have? What enables us to label an act as good? How did we develop moral categories for our actions?
Originally posted by TTFU:To accept something you must also deny something. Slightly unfair, but that is how many minds work today.
To be Christian means that you deny yourself the right to call yourself any other religion and to live a lifestyle that contradicts the teachings of Christ. Although many Christians take it with a pinch of salt, they dont their oath and their commitment seriously and thus end up contradicting themselves in many ways.
once again, brilliant observation. the law of non contradiction at work.
When one says i do to his wife, he's also in effect saying i don't to the other women out there. Truth is exclusive by definition.
To be Christian, one emulates the person of Christ and obeys the commandments of Christ (taught in context). The false doctrine of the "prosperity" movement must be recognized that it is essentially that, false. The presence of aberrant followers in any school of thought doesn't negate or falsify the truthfulness of the teachings. If anything, the true believer takes heart that these things (false doctrines, prophets) have been described about in the Scriptures (Jude, 1 /2 Timothy).
evil come from Osama Bin Laden.
Originally posted by TTFU:I think you already lost it. And what i said links back to what despondent said about 10 fingers 11 fingers and what is abnormal and not abnormal. You fail to realise that it is people/humans that classify these.
are you saying hungry or full is also classified by humans ? if you are hungry, you are hungry, even if you think you are full, your stomach is not going to be full unless you eat. what i'm trying to say here is fact is fact.
fairyfairy...its not abt whether is a fact or not...i noe it is...wad we are trying to say here is how do we noe the feeling of hunger and full? in other words, one cannot be known without the existence of the other...its the same as sufferings and blessings...
to TTFU
tats why i didnt want to publicise my answers initially cos ppl like rooney9 wun get wad i am saying but tink i am sprouting rubbish...well, tat means badzmaro is also sprouting rubbish then...
to fairyfairy
see wad i mean? if it was a discussion btw u and i onli...we wun have remarks like these from rooney9...
to bring this back to toipc....how does evil originate?
to answer this qn, we must 1st set the premises. is evil the opposite of good or the absence of good? for those who have come across this, u shld noe that there is a difference btw opposite of good and absence of good...once the premise is established, then the discussion can start...
Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:
are you saying hungry or full is also classified by humans ? if you are hungry, you are hungry, even if you think you are full, your stomach is not going to be full unless you eat. what i'm trying to say here is fact is fact.
So whats your point, you blame god because people go hungry all around the world ? Isnt that a humanity problem ?
she will say why did God allow the humanity problem?
Originally posted by TTFU:So whats your point, you blame god because people go hungry all around the world ? Isnt that a humanity problem ?
my point is fact is fact. it is not how humans classify things. just like if you are hungry, you cannot change the fact that you are hungry. by classifying hungry as full will not make your stomach full. you still need food to fill your stomach.
Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:my point is fact is fact. it is not how humans classify things. just like if you are hungry, you cannot change the fact that you are hungry. by classifying hungry as full will not make your stomach full. you still need food to fill your stomach.
You realise you are comparing oranges with apples right ? If humans do not classify according to abnormal and normal. Then there will be no such thing as abnormal. You should realise that its humans that are evil, not religion or god.
Originally posted by TTFU:You realise you are comparing oranges with apples right ? If humans do not classify according to abnormal and normal. Then there will be no such thing as abnormal. You should realise that its humans that are evil, not religion or god.
i think we are at different frequency. that is why you don't understand. i did not say religion or god is evil. i'm questioning on inequality. i rest my case.
Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:
i think we are at different frequency. that is why you don't understand. i did not say religion or god is evil. i'm questioning on inequality. i rest my case.
i'll leave it to a christain to explain that, if there is any
fairyfairy...
if there isnt comaprison btw at least 2 things, how can we have inequality? we learn in maths this thing called equation...let me ask u, in an equation, u need the left side and rite side...in other words, can sufferings exist alone without blessings? how would u noe sth is negative if there is nth positive to compare it wif? for inequality to exist, there must be comparison wif sth else...same as why do we say humans are imperfect? its cos we have knowledge of wad perfection is...if not, wad is imperfection?
and speaking abt hunger, i am not changing the fact that i am hungry...i am saying...how do we noe that feeling is hunger? cos we know the feeling of being full and vice-versa...so again, its cos we have sth else to compare wif...
Originally posted by despondent:fairyfairy...
if there isnt comaprison btw at least 2 things, how can we have inequality? we learn in maths this thing called equation...let me ask u, in an equation, u need the left side and rite side...in other words, can sufferings exist alone without blessings? how would u noe sth is negative if there is nth positive to compare it wif? for inequality to exist, there must be comparison wif sth else...same as why do we say humans are imperfect? its cos we have knowledge of wad perfection is...if not, wad is imperfection?
hey mate she is asking why, not asking what, or how. she is asking how do you account and justify for the babies who are borned deformed, since bible said humans are his creations. why some are born in rich families, some are born in poor families etc etc. if you cant explain the why, pls dun continue anymore. I dun need you to philosophise the beauty and the ugly, rich and poor, strong and weak.
not only are the questions posed wasnt answered to the point, but deflection and superfluous replies. in short, answered anything but the question.
Originally posted by TTFU:God may be omnipotent and omnipresent, but in no way is he an illogical being. You cannot be omnipotent if you create beings of free will, because if you do, then you do not grant true free will among your creations.
The easiest way to see this is if you had a child, in all possible circumstances YOU MAY guide your child to grow up in a certain fashion, directing your child's thought process, but in the process you are constantly interfering with the child's own ability to decide on his or her own. Why do you think it is always taboo in all those movies about God about the infringement of free will? If God wanted to create creatures of free will, then he can no longer truly remain as omnipotent as he once was, he gave part of that up the moment he created humans.
People who say God is omnipotent and omnipresent do not clearly think about all the contradictions that rise with it and then we come into a full circle argument of how God is full of holes, when in fact the original statement is the one full of holes because most people can't see why he gave humans free will in the first place
Omnipotent in a sense that what man can do, He can do. What He can do, man cannot do.
Free will for Man is a choice to do certain things.
An analogy to illustrate the point is a man builds a machine to serve him. If the machine malfunctions, he must be able to shut it down. The machine can do the work of man but man must have control over the machine.
I have a new question though. are there any reasons why god didnt not reveal his revelations now? why must it be 2010 years ago and not as and when god wants to? why isnt there any god revelations revealed in the bible now? so does it mean to say, god only said once and that was 2010 years ago? does it mean in future, he will not reveal his revelations? if he has revelations to reveal, how does he do it?
Originally posted by googoomuck:Omnipotent in a sense that what man can do, He can do. What He can do, man cannot do.
Free will for Man is a choice to do certain things.
An analogy to illustrate the point is a man builds a machine to serve him. If the machine malfunctions, he must be able to shut it down. The machine can do the work of man but man must have control over the machine.
so if the machine sucks and cannot do alot of things it was programmed to do, so what now? so it all boils down to the people who created the machine isnt it. but the thing is, why god create some to be genius, some average, some deformed. those who are borned deformed or intellectual disability, wasnt given a chance to live his/her life properly isnt it.
anyway your analogy is of a different matter altogether, still it doesnt explain the why question.
i am still keeping my stand...without creating ppl of diff intellectual levels and physical abilities...would ppl like us noe who is considered deformed, genius, average etc? wad do we base these definitions on?
so why does God allow sufferings? one reason is so that we can appreciate blessings. without the knowledge of sufferings, would we noe blessings? tats my stand. u can disagree...
Originally posted by googoomuck:Omnipotent in a sense that what man can do, He can do. What He can do, man cannot do.
Free will for Man is a choice to do certain things.
An analogy to illustrate the point is a man builds a machine to serve him. If the machine malfunctions, he must be able to shut it down. The machine can do the work of man but man must have control over the machine.
Actually 24/7 explained well in this, above. I dont quite agree with your analogy, saying man having control over machine, because that would mean having no true free will ?
seriously, alot of things still goes back to definitions...without a common platform, we cun have friendly discussions...like fairyfairy who is toking abt inequality...the way a person looks at blessings and sufferings depends largely on upbringing, social influence and the books we read...if one focuses a lot on buddhism, sufferings will be magnified but if one focuses on christianity, blessings will be magnified...either way there is inequality but the scales are titlted in diff directions...
so i completely understand why some here keep harping on sufferings...buddhism has a huge bit of teachings abt sufferings...the essence of buddhism is to escape sufferings...its like moving from sufferings to no suffering...no suffering is seen as blessing...but in christianity, its moving from normality to eternal blessings...so the emphasis are diff leading to very diff schools of tots and beliefs...which is why from the start, i alredi said...its an apple-orange argument...but some ppl are juz not convinced...
Originally posted by despondent:i am still keeping my stand...without creating ppl of diff intellectual levels and physical abilities...would ppl like us noe who is considered deformed, genius, average etc? wad do we base these definitions on?
so why does God allow sufferings? one reason is so that we can appreciate blessings. without the knowledge of sufferings, would we noe blessings? tats my stand. u can disagree...
its convenient for you to say these, because you are born normal and healthy. want to ask those who are born deformed to ask how they feel on this issue? still it doesnt address the question asked. the why question. if god is all powerful, why is his creations so wretched and miserable for some, good for some.