Originally posted by TTFU:Actually 24/7 explained well in this, above. I dont quite agree with your analogy, saying man having control over machine, because that would mean having no true free will ?
You can hate the Maker but you cannot destroy the Maker.The Maker sets a limit to the things man can do , just like a scientist won't build a robot he cannot control.
About God's ability to create a rock that's too heavy to lift? We are getting ahead of ourselves.
so the crux of the matter is...if no sufferings is considered blessings, then why must have sufferings? this is logical cos no suffering is defined as blessings...however, if blessings is seen as more than jus having no sufferings, then sufferings would be necessary to bring out the value of blessings.
it has become more or less a fact that ppl who went thru hardship in life are more appreciative of life. usually, they are less complacent but possess more drive. if life was a bed of roses, we wun appreciate blessings when we experience them cos we have taken them for granted. we say deformity is suffering. true. then are we not blessed to be born normal? we could have been like any of those who are deformed. but we are not. so isnt tat a form of blessing? ah...but why do most of us not see it this way? cos its normal to be born in such a manner. wadever is normal is not seen as blessings as its common.
so if being born in such a way makes us normal. that would mean being born this way was the origin. wadever came after tat which was different is considered deformed or abnormal. if one realli ponder abt this, wouldnt it suggest good came before evil; blessings came before sufferings? again, it depends on how one define blessings and sufferings...this though is how i would define them...
Originally posted by despondent:seriously, alot of things still goes back to definitions...without a common platform, we cun have friendly discussions...like fairyfairy who is toking abt inequality...the way a person looks at blessings and sufferings depends largely on upbringing, social influence and the books we read...if one focuses a lot on buddhism, sufferings will be magnified but if one focuses on christianity, blessings will be magnified...either way there is inequality but the scales are titlted in diff directions...
so i completely understand why some here keep harping on sufferings...buddhism has a huge bit of teachings abt sufferings...the essence of buddhism is to escape sufferings...its like moving from sufferings to no suffering...no suffering is seen as blessing...but in christianity, its moving from normality to eternal blessings...so the emphasis are diff leading to very diff schools of tots and beliefs...which is why from the start, i alredi said...its an apple-orange argument...but some ppl are juz not convinced...
Whatever, any religion is moving towards stupidity.
Originally posted by Rooney9:its convenient for you to say these, because you are born normal and healthy. want to ask those who are born deformed to ask how they feel on this issue?
I think you just said it yourself. Yes bring those who are deformed here and asked of their feelings. Ask them why society and people have labeled them as abnormal.
they are deformed to us cos we are born normal. are u sure all deformed ppl are unhappy and bitter abt life? it seems to me tat its the normal ppl who are complaining abt these ppl's deformities. i see the blind basking on the streets and man, i can see joy emitting out from their faces. they enjoy life even though they cun see. i see the starving kids in Africa on tv and some of them can still smile to the camera. sometimes, i feel tat normal ppl like us ''shen zai fu zhong bu zhi fu''...
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Whatever, any religion is moving towards stupidity.
No serious troll is serious.
Originally posted by despondent:seriously, alot of things still goes back to definitions...without a common platform, we cun have friendly discussions...like fairyfairy who is toking abt inequality...the way a person looks at blessings and sufferings depends largely on upbringing, social influence and the books we read...if one focuses a lot on buddhism, sufferings will be magnified but if one focuses on christianity, blessings will be magnified...either way there is inequality but the scales are titlted in diff directions...
so i completely understand why some here keep harping on sufferings...buddhism has a huge bit of teachings abt sufferings...the essence of buddhism is to escape sufferings...its like moving from sufferings to no suffering...no suffering is seen as blessing...but in christianity, its moving from normality to eternal blessings...so the emphasis are diff leading to very diff schools of tots and beliefs...which is why from the start, i alredi said...its an apple-orange argument...but some ppl are juz not convinced...
no you go asks people of other faith on this issue, they will also feel its unfair and unjust. does it mean that god treated us as his play thing for experiment or to test us if we are strong or weak? you are bias, because you are a christian. of course you will be defending the refutations. so I now know fairness and equality in the system are not considerations in your religion. now i know, even though you did not answer to the questions.
Originally posted by TTFU:I think you just said it yourself. Yes bring those who are deformed here and asked of their feelings. Ask them why society and people have labeled them as abnormal.
so who to blame when they are borned like that? blame it on god then, for it was him that he was born like that. but is it due to god creation as I dun accept creationist in my paradigm. the people who are borned deformed are due to the complexities of genetics. ask the doctor this and he/she will explain to you.
Originally posted by googoomuck:You can hate the Maker but you cannot destroy the Maker.The Maker sets a limit to the things man can do , just like a scientist won't build a robot he cannot control.
About God's ability to create a rock that's too heavy to lift? We are getting ahead of ourselves.
Control, since you talked about control. What is free will then to you ? And about 24/7 example, getting ahead of ourselves ?
Originally posted by TTFU:I think you just said it yourself. Yes bring those who are deformed here and asked of their feelings. Ask them why society and people have labeled them as abnormal.
so who to blame when they are borned like that? blame it on god then, for it was him that he was born like that. but is it due to god creation as I dun accept creationist in my paradigm. the people who are borned deformed are due to the complexities of genetics. ask the doctor this and he/she will explain to you.
in the ancient past, DNA, genetics were not discovered by scientists, so they have no problem accepting creationist. fast forward 2010 with the advent of science and technology. a lot of things can be explained by science and medicine.
Originally posted by Rooney9:so if the machine sucks and cannot do alot of things it was programmed to do, so what now? so it all boils down to the people who created the machine isnt it. but the thing is, why god create some to be genius, some average, some deformed. those who are borned deformed or intellectual disability, wasnt given a chance to live his/her life properly isnt it.
anyway your analogy is of a different matter altogether, still it doesnt explain the why question.
Listen to me loony. i do not think you are stupid but what's my opinion when compared to that of 2 billion Christians out there.
ppl of other faith? are they born normal or deformed? if born normal, its the same thing wad...normal ppl complaining abt other ppl's deformities. u follow buddhism so ur focus is on sufferings...u dun have to agree wif christianity but christians are taught to focus on blessings while acknowledging tat such ppl are pitiful...u cannot deny that christians have also done their fair share of charity and helping the needy...
sufferings, blame it on God...ok, fair enuff...blessings, thank who ah? thank man himself rite?
Originally posted by despondent:ppl of other faith? are they born normal or deformed? if born normal, its the same thing wad...normal ppl complaining abt other ppl's deformities. u follow buddhism so ur focus is on sufferings...u dun have to agree wif christianity but christians are taught to focus on blessings while acknowledging tat such ppl are pitiful...u cannot deny that christians have also done their fair share of charity and helping the needy...
Look at this key quote here people. Whatever religion it is, its main aim is to guide a person to live a better life. To appreaciate how normal we are formed. Calm down abit there and try to appreaciate the meaning.
Originally posted by TTFU:Control, since you talked about control. What is free will then to you ? And about 24/7 example, getting ahead of ourselves ?
A God creating a huge rock he cannot lift? Has that happen yet? Is it going to happen? If it has happened, will He let us know?
I don't want to predict that this God, a creator of the universe, is going to do that.
btw, do u noe wads the meaning of discover? maybe u have diff definition lah...but to me, discover means to find out sth that alredi existed before it was found out...so yes, scientists discovered but what/who made those things for them to discover? and how/what/who gave man the intelligence and abilities to discover and invent? by chance? well, yes, if u believe in evolution...but surely not, if u dun...
Originally posted by googoomuck:About God's ability to create a rock that's too heavy to lift? We are getting ahead of ourselves.
so you think its impossible isnt it, as god is omnipotent. but then there lies the gist of the argument here. if god cant create a rock too heavy for him to lift, then where is his omnipotence anymore? either scenario he cant create or cant lift will dispel his omnipotence. thats the reason why you cant entertain the invincibility of his omnipotence. this is purely logic, not whether he is omnipotence or not, that is besides the matter.
even if u are rite abt tis...that does not disproves His existence...
Originally posted by googoomuck:Listen to me loony. i do not think you are stupid but what's my opinion when compared to that of 2 billion Christians out there.
last time u said 1 billion. now u said 2 billion. your figure is like everchanging.
ok time to show proof that there are 2 billion christians out there in the world? where did you get your source from?
Originally posted by Rooney9:so you think its impossible isnt it, as god is omnipotent. but then there lies the gist of the argument here. if god cant create a rock too heavy for him to lift, then where is his omnipotence anymore? either scenario he cant create or cant lift will dispel his omnipotence. thats the reason why you cant entertain the invincibility of his omnipotence. this is purely logic, not whether he is omnipotence or not, that is besides the matter.
Yes it is against the laws of logic and his nature dont you think ? And this god will be full of loopholes. Read page 8 again. And if god really had control over you, wont you be like a robot ? Are you a thinking being ? and there comes free will.
Originally posted by despondent:even if u are rite abt tis...that does not disproves His existence...
u said it urself, cant deprove his existence, but neither can you prove his existence. existence is for christians to say so. but to non believers, prove it. so how do you reconcile this? how do you prove that god exists to non believers and to the world. if science ever said god exists in science journals, textbooks and mainstream newspaper and magazines, then god exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
unless u dun trust wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
unless u dun trust wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
unless u dun trust wikipedia
Originally posted by Rooney9:so who to blame when they are borned like that? blame it on god then, for it was him that he was born like that. but is it due to god creation as I dun accept creationist in my paradigm. the people who are borned deformed are due to the complexities of genetics. ask the doctor this and he/she will explain to you.
in the ancient past, DNA, genetics were not discovered by scientists, so they have no problem accepting creationist. fast forward 2010 with the advent of science and technology. a lot of things can be explained by science and medicine.
No actually. For more info on science please read the dinosaur thread on the last page. Unless you want me to copy it over. Science up till today has not explained the creation of the universe. And it will never. And science has its own mistakes also just that you never heared of it.