Dun believe then go eternal hell?
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Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:
believe then go heaven is true.Many said they believe but Only Gods know wads in their hearts. Many self proclaimed christians dun believe in their minds only lip service.
how to believe when the bible was full of paradoxes and inconsistencies.
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I believe amongst people of all religions there'll be good & bad.
If there really is a God, I'm sure he/she will be able to see the goodness in the person instead of the human label created-Christian, Muslim, Jew etc..
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I know there are some Christians who are insensitive and tell non Christians in their faces that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Christ. I was once like that and have learnt that it is extremely insensitive so say such things and deeply regretted saying such things in the past.
However, if a non Christian asks, he/she should bear an open mind and the Christian should not shy away from speaking the truth. The bible has stated very clearly in Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God do not judge based on human standards, He judges by His own perfect standards. Most people would not have physically committed murder or adultery, but If you have lied before, you are a liar; if you have taken anything that doesn't belong to you (even if it's just a sweet), you are a thief; if you have lusted after a woman apart your wife, you are an adulterer; the list goes on. Whether you like it or not, those are God's standards and He will judge you according to those standards.
You might think that a person is "good", but that is based on your own standards. Why are some people loved by many and yet hated by many at the same time? We all have different standards and our standards are flawed, only God's standards are perfectly just. It's up to you whether or not to believe, but we Christians believe that our sins can only be forgiven by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior and repenting of our sins, only then can we escape judgement and suffer eternal seperation from God or what many call hell.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:
I know there are some Christians who are insensitive and tell non Christians in their faces that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Christ. I was once like that and have learnt that it is extremely insensitive so say such things and deeply regretted saying such things in the past.
However, if a non Christian asks, he/she should bear an open mind and the Christian should not shy away from speaking the truth. The bible has stated very clearly in Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God do not judge based on human standards, He judges by His own perfect standards. Most people would not have physically committed murder or adultery, but If you have lied before, you are a liar; if you have taken anything that doesn't belong to you (even if it's just a sweet), you are a thief; if you have lusted after a woman apart your wife, you are an adulterer; the list goes on. Whether you like it or not, those are God's standards and He will judge you according to those standards.
You might think that a person is "good", but that is based on your own standards. Why are some people loved by many and yet hated by many at the same time? We all have different standards and our standards are flawed, only God's standards are perfectly just. It's up to you whether or not to believe, but we Christians believe that our sins can only be forgiven by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior and repenting of our sins, only then can we escape judgement and suffer eternal seperation from God or what many call hell.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
hang on a sec, the truth? just like another man's meat is another one poison, so the truth of one religion doesnt mean the truth in others. the truth in christianity may not be the truth in another religion. similarly, their truth may not correspond with the truth in christianity. just like you the existence of god is beyond any doubt in your religion, but to atheist and agnotists, there are no god or at the very least bring out proof of the existence of god. pls bear in mind not everyone in this world believes in a god or hell thingy. so it really is relative to who you are speaking with.
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Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:
I know there are some Christians who are insensitive and tell non Christians in their faces that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Christ. I was once like that and have learnt that it is extremely insensitive so say such things and deeply regretted saying such things in the past.
However, if a non Christian asks, he/she should bear an open mind and the Christian should not shy away from speaking the truth. The bible has stated very clearly in Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God do not judge based on human standards, He judges by His own perfect standards. Most people would not have physically committed murder or adultery, but If you have lied before, you are a liar; if you have taken anything that doesn't belong to you (even if it's just a sweet), you are a thief; if you have lusted after a woman apart your wife, you are an adulterer; the list goes on. Whether you like it or not, those are God's standards and He will judge you according to those standards.
You might think that a person is "good", but that is based on your own standards. Why are some people loved by many and yet hated by many at the same time? We all have different standards and our standards are flawed, only God's standards are perfectly just. It's up to you whether or not to believe, but we Christians believe that our sins can only be forgiven by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior and repenting of our sins, only then can we escape judgement and suffer eternal seperation from God or what many call hell.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Agree with you that salvation has already been won for us by Jesus Christ. Just would like to add that it is also an ongoing process as we demonstrate through our actions that we desire this salvation that has been prepared for us. In other words, Christ has opened the door to heaven for us, but we have to want to walk through it.
Indeed, the Bible does state that in addition to faith, much of our salvation will also depend on our love for others and the way we have lived our lives, not just because we are Christian (Matt 25:31-46, Matt 7:21, 1 Cor 13:13).
And if our non-Christian friends demonstrate this love of Christ in their lives, who is to say that they will also not receive their own eternal reward from He who is full of compassion and mercy?
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Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:
I know there are some Christians who are insensitive and tell non Christians in their faces that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Christ. I was once like that and have learnt that it is extremely insensitive so say such things and deeply regretted saying such things in the past.
However, if a non Christian asks, he/she should bear an open mind and the Christian should not shy away from speaking the truth. The bible has stated very clearly in Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God do not judge based on human standards, He judges by His own perfect standards. Most people would not have physically committed murder or adultery, but If you have lied before, you are a liar; if you have taken anything that doesn't belong to you (even if it's just a sweet), you are a thief; if you have lusted after a woman apart your wife, you are an adulterer; the list goes on. Whether you like it or not, those are God's standards and He will judge you according to those standards.
You might think that a person is "good", but that is based on your own standards. Why are some people loved by many and yet hated by many at the same time? We all have different standards and our standards are flawed, only God's standards are perfectly just. It's up to you whether or not to believe, but we Christians believe that our sins can only be forgiven by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior and repenting of our sins, only then can we escape judgement and suffer eternal seperation from God or what many call hell.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
i have a former colleague who loses her temper everyday.
she told me its ok because everyday after work she would asked for forgivenness. she told me she's going to heaven.
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Originally posted by dragg:
i have a former colleague who loses her temper everyday.
she told me its ok because everyday after work she would asked for forgivenness. she told me she's going to heaven.
We all have certain degree of losing temper.Losing temper does not mean cannot go back to heaven.
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Originally posted by dragg:
i have a former colleague who loses her temper everyday.
she told me its ok because everyday after work she would asked for forgivenness. she told me she's going to heaven.
aiya, your colleague only lose temper. what is the big deal? my christian colleagues harming people, back stab people and make things difficult for people also thinking they are going to heaven. to them, the certificates to heaven are in their hand, so they can do anything they want.
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Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:
aiya, your colleague only lose temper. what is the big deal? my christian colleagues harming people, back stab people and make things difficult for people also thinking they are going to heaven. to them, the certificates to heaven are in their hand, so they can do anything they want.
forget to add, i'm seeing retributions to these people. though it is bad to think of that when they are unfortunate but sometimes can't help it. -
Originally posted by Servant:
Many Christians (eg Catholics) have never believed this strange 'doctrine'. To do so would be to say that we are God, as only He has the final authority to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
Jesus Christ has won salvation for His followers, but they have to demonstrate through their charitable actions that they desire this salvation. He is not going to 'force' it on anyone.
Actually all Yeshua has done is redeem us. We are not saved yet. We have been redeemed to the right of salvation. Hence the need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling for it can be lost.
BTW, if you read your bible carefully, there is no such thing as the going to heaven or hell. The bible says that man's inheritance is the EARTH. We stay put. We do not get whisked away to some lala fairytale land as the christians so describe. Read the book of Revelation, there will be a new heaven and a renewed earth, and we will dwell here with Yeshua.
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Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:
aiya, your colleague only lose temper. what is the big deal? my christian colleagues harming people, back stab people and make things difficult for people also thinking they are going to heaven. to them, the certificates to heaven are in their hand, so they can do anything they want.
its just an example.
they think heaven is there for the taking just because they profess their belief in god.
a believer is a temple of god. their behaviour reflects god. take a good look around you. how many people actually reflects positively of god? most religious people 光说�练��
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Originally posted by dragg:
its just an example.
they think heaven is there for the taking just because they profess their belief in god.
a believer is a temple of god. their behaviour reflects god. take a good look around you. how many people actually reflects positively of god? most religious people 光说�练��
Bingo!
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its written in the bible lar. anyway christians regard their truth to be the universal truth, but I ask them back this question. What about the truths in other religions, so your truth in your religion doesnt mean it is the truth in their religion and vice versa isnt it.
if everybody in their religion started using their truths to interpret and explain the world, how many truths do you think is the truth in so many religion?
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Just to remind you Rooney9. that the bible has also been a source of how to live your life and how to deal with things in your daily life. Even Ghandi and other non-Christians took learnings from the bible, but they are still not Christians at heart.
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so what does it mean? so you are saying it is the truth? I read that some christians also follow other religion teachings, so does it mean anything to you here? so you are implying that the truth in christianity is the universal truth? I knew you will say this, but then you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions. I beg to differ though.
back to my question, if every religion uses their own version of truth to be the universal truth, then how many universal truths do you think there are in this world? there can only be one truth. you will definitely say your religion truth is the truth and other religions will beg to differ and say their version of truths are nothing, but the truth.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
how to believe when the bible was full of paradoxes and inconsistencies.
Arguing with a cretin is pointless. Playing your broken record over and over again.
You give another example of a paradox and I'll name it after you.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Arguing with a cretin is pointless. Playing your broken record over and over again.
You give another example of a paradox and I'll name it after you.
oh then arguing with a son of the gun got point
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
oh then arguing with a son of the gun got point
Why waste time argue with a cretin?
Cannot fit in here and know nuts about buddhism. You won't fit in even if you become a Hindu adherent. You are a misfit.
I buy you a wig when you mend your ways.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
so what does it mean? so you are saying it is the truth? I read that some christians also follow other religion teachings, so does it mean anything to you here? so you are implying that the truth in christianity is the universal truth? I knew you will say this, but then you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions. I beg to differ though.
back to my question, if every religion uses their own version of truth to be the universal truth, then how many universal truths do you think there are in this world? there can only be one truth. you will definitely say your religion truth is the truth and other religions will beg to differ and say their version of truths are nothing, but the truth.
1. “Truth exists.” Clark establishes this point by reminding us of the self-defeating nature of any attempt to deny the existence of truth. Since skepticism is false, there must be knowledge; and if there is knowledge, there must exist the object of knowledge, namely truth.
2. “Truth is immutable.” It is impossible for truth to change. As Clark says, “Truth must be unchangeable. What is true today always has been and always will be true.” For Clark, all true propositions are eternal and immutable truths. He has no use for pragmatic views of truth that imply that what is true today may be false tomorrow. If truth changes, then pragmatism will be false tomorrow-if, indeed, it could ever be true. Truth itself is unaffected by the fact that sentences like “I am now typing” are sometimes true and usually false. Since I’ll present a rather long argument in defense of this claim later in this chapter, I’ll assume that this possible problem can be answered and move on to Clark’s next point.
3. “Truth is eternal.” It would be self-contradictory to deny the eternity of truth. If the world will never cease to exist, it is true that the world will never cease to exist. If the world will someday perish, then that is true. But truth itself will abide even though every created thing should perish. But suppose someone asks, “what if truth itself should perish?” Then it would still be true that truth had perished. Any denial of the eternity of truth turns out to be an affirmation of its eternity.
4. “Truth is Mental.” The existence of truth presupposes the existence of minds. “Without a mind, truth could not exist. The object of knowledge is a proposition, a meaning, a significance; it is a thought.” For Clark, the existence of truth is incompatible with any materialistic view of man. If the materialist admits the existence of consciousness at all, he regards it as an effect and not a cause. For a materialist, thoughts are always the result of bodily changes. This materialism implies that all thinking, including logical reasoning, is merely the result of mechanical necessity. But bodily changes can be neither true nor false. One set of physical motions cannot be truer than another. Therefore, if there is no mind, there can be no truth; and if there is no truth, materialism cannot be true. Likewise, if there is no mind, there can be no such thing as logical reasoning from which it follows that no materialist can possible provide a valid argument for his position. No reason can possible be given to justify an acceptance of materialism. Hence, for Clark, any denial of the mental nature of truth is self-stultifying. In Clarks words,
“If a truth, a proposition, or a thought were some physical motion in the brain, no two persons could have the same thought. A physical motion is a fleeting event numerically distinct from every other. Two persons cannot have the same motion, nor can one person have it twice. If this is what thought were, memory and communication would be impossible…It is a peculiarity of mind and not of body that the past can be made present. Accordingly, if one may thing the same thought twice, truth must be mental or spiritual. Not only does [truth] defy time; it defies space as well, for if communication is to be possible, the identical truth must be in two minds at once. If, in opposition, anyone wished to deny that an immaterial idea can exist in two minds at once, his denial must be conceived to exist in his own mind only; and since it has not registered in any other mind, it does not occur to us to refute it.”
To summarize Clark’s argument thus far, truth exists and is both eternal and immutable. Furthermore, truth can exist only in some mind.
5. “Truth is superior to the human mind.” By this, Clark means that by its very nature, truth cannot be subjective and individualistic. Humans know certain truths that are not only necessary but universal. While these truths are immutable, the human mind is changeable. Even though beliefs vary from one person to another, truth itself cannot change. Moreover, the human mind does not stand in judgment of truth: rather truth judges our reason. While we often judge other human minds (as when we say, for example, that someone’s mind is not a keen as it should be), we do not judge truth. If truth and the human mind were equal, truth could not be eternal and immutable since the human mind is finite, mutable, and subject to error. Therefore, truth must transcend human reason; truth must be superior to any individual human mind as well as to the sum total of human minds. From this it follows that there must be a mind higher than the human mind in which truth resides.
6. “Truth is God.” There must be an ontological ground for truth. But the ground of truth cannot be anything perishable or contingent. Since truth is eternal and immutable, it must exist in an eternal Mind. And since only God possesses these attributes, God must be truth.
“Is all this any more than the assertion that there is an eternal, immutable Mind, as Supreme Reason, a personal, living God? The truths or propositions that may be known are the thoughts of God, the eternal thoughts of God. And insofar as man knows anything he is in contact with God’s mind. Since further, God’s mind is God, we may… say, we have a vision of God.”
Therefore, when human beings know truth, we also know something of God’s nature. There is a sense in which all knowledge is a knowledge of God.
-Ronald Nash – Faith and Reason - p. 161 -
Originally posted by -StarDust-:
We all have certain degree of losing temper.Losing temper does not mean cannot go back to heaven.
you didnt get my point.
being a christian isnt just about going to church and praying for forgiveness. if its that easy heaven will be overcrowded. its written somewhere in the bible the number of people who could go to heaven are few.
how could someone lose her temper nearly everyday? there are no sign of repentance at all.
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Originally posted by dragg:
you didnt get my point.
being a christian isnt just about going to church and praying for forgiveness. if its that easy heaven will be overcrowded. its written somewhere in the bible the number of people who could go to heaven are few.
how could someone lose her temper nearly everyday? there are no sign of repentance at all.
Stardust should learn more from you. Many Christians are like him thought just convert to Christian and will be saved by grace and sure will go to heaven. Christianity and Buddhism are the same, they are not easy religion. It is only that Christians are misled into thinking it is an easier religion than Buddhism.
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Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:
Stardust should learn more from you. Many Christians are like him thought just convert to Christian and will be saved by grace and sure will go to heaven. Christianity and Buddhism are the same, they are not easy religion. It is only that Christians are misled into thinking it is an easier religion than Buddhism.
I am being critisized again.Y dont u believe that with faith is enough to let u go to heaven. Only faith not good works.
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I go ask the Catholics on faith and works
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Originally posted by laurence82:
I go ask the Catholics on faith and works
Catholics believed in faith and works. Christian faith only. -
yes yes, i see the schism there, of cuz