Wisdom/Intelligence cannot coexist with God
-
Originally posted by BadzMaro:
In the modern world.. we consider ALL choices. =)
We are supposed to be MORE open minded.
Therefore , we cannot forgot the possibilities. Limiting oneself is like already being more close-minded then those who percieve themselves to be the smartest person on the planet.
so rebirth is not included?
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
so rebirth is not included?
Possible.
If u are persuaded by its logic.
-
Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:
I've actually noticed that most people with exceptional wisdom or intelligence have trouble accepting god. I'm sure most of you will have read about tensions between the Church and brilliant scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and thinkers throughout history. In so many cases, these great minds have either been persecuted for their alleged "heresy" or silently acquiesced in fear. I've seen it too, in my professors, teachers and colleagues, many of whom grew up in fully religious families but strayed away as they matured cognitively. Other exceptional personalities like Mother Teresa (as seen in another article on this forum) had profound doubts about god. Even numerous stars in Hollywood (the true theatrical talents, not attention whores like paris hilton) have turned to other religions.
I speak through personal experience because I was once christian but i felt that something was inherently wrong with the fundamentals of the religion. Truthfully ask yourself, take away the comforting words of your church mates and pastors, take away the companionship of the congregation, take away the egocentric self-assuredness of "being saved". Now do you still TRULY love your God?
(to all my christian friends out there, I sincerely apologise if you are offended, these are genuine contemplations of mine and I want to seek your opinions with absolutely no ill-intent)
In my humble personal opinion,
A religion is a meaningful, significant, and important medium to transmit values and philosophies.
A religious community also serves as a focal point and a key node for the culture, heritage, and belonging, of a person.
Therefore,
Until the day that we as human beings can find something else which can serve these purposes better, we need accept, and in fact, cherish and encourage this form of spirituality and culture.
Whether someone believes in Abrahamaic religion, or believes in Amazonian traditional jungle religion, the main basic points and substance is the same.
Thusly,
I do not see a chance that religion can be replaced.
It is true that certain aspects of religious teachings contradict rationality.
However, the human spirit, human emotion, human flesh, and human heart, does not consist of rationality alone.
If you notice in some parts of the world, some people may abandon their "old religion" but they pick up new ones such as, Scientology, or even Buddhism.
This is because people seek and search.
For me personally,
My understanding and my relationship with my religion is this,
It is to help me to become a better person.
This is not much different with doing Yoga, going to gym, taking up music, and so on. Religion is something to me that can do something to my mind, to my personality, and to my character. I know I have many faults and flaws, and I need the thousand-year-old philosophies to help me to become a better person.
-
Originally posted by BadzMaro:
In the modern world.. we consider ALL choices. =)
We are supposed to be MORE open minded.
Therefore , we cannot forgot the possibilities. Limiting oneself is like already being more close-minded then those who percieve themselves to be the smartest person on the planet.
True.
Everything is a scientist's faith. Isn't science supposed to be about understanding the nature of all things possible and impossible.
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
Gogomuck is satan. he is here to disrupt the thread. he has no credibility whatsoever. I suspect he is a clone of someone here.
Since when have you got any credibility? Explain, cretin!
Anyone who associate with you will become an embarrassment to devout Buddhists!
-
i agree that (secular) wisdom cannot coexsist with god as he cannot be explained fully by our wisdom
Some cases
Actually there are much more scientific and archaelogical edvidence to prove darwin to be right than creation
WHy?
Archaelogical edividence is based on our secular wisdom, which god power we cannot fully explain
However, we need to have complete faith in God (Ephesians 2:8) as he had loved us so much (John 3:16).
Hence, let us always rely on God strength for us to understand and comprehend him totally
-
Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:
nice try =)
my apologies are only for the possibility that my views might be ill-received.
Those are not your views. You got the facts wrong!
-
Originally posted by BadzMaro:
Possible.
If u are persuaded by its logic.
but then its rejected by your religion. -
Originally posted by googoomuck:
Since when have you got any credibility? Explain, cretin!
Anyone who associate with you will become an embarrassment to devout Buddhists!
see mudslinging and name calling is order of the day to you. since when u have credibility with this clone
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
see mudslinging and name calling is order of the day to you. since when u have credibility with this clone
......but you are not innocent. First, there was you, a cretin, before I come into your life!
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
......but you are not innocent. First, there was you, a cretin, before I come into your life!
with a reply like this, who can take you seriously
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
with a reply like this, who can take you seriously
A cretin can even visit SgSexForum for inspiration.
How can you, a cretin, be taken seriously?
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
A cretin can even visit SgSexForum for inspiration.
How can you, a cretin, be taken seriously?
He uses the same nick to visit different forums.
Isn't it better, than if Someone seeks to hide his/her identity by using clones to visit different forums, right?
Using this to attack people shows your simplicity.
-
Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
In my humble personal opinion,
A religion is a meaningful, significant, and important medium to transmit values and philosophies.
A religious community also serves as a focal point and a key node for the culture, heritage, and belonging, of a person.
Therefore,
Until the day that we as human beings can find something else which can serve these purposes better, we need accept, and in fact, cherish and encourage this form of spirituality and culture.
Whether someone believes in Abrahamaic religion, or believes in Amazonian traditional jungle religion, the main basic points and substance is the same.
Thusly,
I do not see a chance that religion can be replaced.
It is true that certain aspects of religious teachings contradict rationality.
However, the human spirit, human emotion, human flesh, and human heart, does not consist of rationality alone.
If you notice in some parts of the world, some people may abandon their "old religion" but they pick up new ones such as, Scientology, or even Buddhism.
This is because people seek and search.
For me personally,
My understanding and my relationship with my religion is this,
It is to help me to become a better person.
This is not much different with doing Yoga, going to gym, taking up music, and so on. Religion is something to me that can do something to my mind, to my personality, and to my character. I know I have many faults and flaws, and I need the thousand-year-old philosophies to help me to become a better person.
Completely agree with you. That religion is a cornerstone of spirituality, morality and culture is unequivocal and only a fool would challenge that notion. I take issue only with the notion of a 'one true omnipotent God' that demands unquestionable loyalty with the threat of eternal suffering. Nothing against with religion in general.
-
Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
i agree that (secular) wisdom cannot coexsist with god as he cannot be explained fully by our wisdom
Some cases
Actually there are much more scientific and archaelogical edvidence to prove darwin to be right than creation
WHy?
Archaelogical edividence is based on our secular wisdom, which god power we cannot fully explain
However, we need to have complete faith in God (Ephesians 2:8) as he had loved us so much (John 3:16).
Hence, let us always rely on God strength for us to understand and comprehend him totally
Yes, secular wisdom cannot exist with spirituality. But the Abrahamic religions, especially christianity, is secular in so many ways!
Your God demands complete, blind, illogical faith. But operates on the very 'secular' concepts of logic and economics. (eg. A price paid for entry to heaven with the alternative being hell.)
-
Just wanna say smthing, hope to be as neutral as possible, and not offend anyone, ok?
I personally operate on this little thing called Suspension Of Disbelief.
Also, we still know far, far, too little about the Universe and the Past. We're still too "young" to be going around saying "this doesn't exist" and "that doesn't exist". Or even "this exists" and "that exists", for that matter.
-
Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:
Yes, secular wisdom cannot exist with spirituality. But the Abrahamic religions, especially christianity, is secular in so many ways!
Your God demands complete, blind, illogical faith. But operates on the very 'secular' concepts of logic and economics. (eg. A price paid for entry to heaven with the alternative being hell.)
you wanna talk econs - good
CPE
Sacrity of time of us need choice, secular or spiritual
O/c for spiritual commitment: Secular commitment
O/c of secular commitment: eternal dammation (if you are unbelivers) or guilt @ Bema throne (if you are believer)
Hence, the choice is easy, MB of secular is less than MC of secular (much less), hence, if you are rational, you would be wanting to know and seek god more
Plus, 2 ways, heaven + hell
No price is REQURIED to go to heaven, it is a free gift (Eph 2:8, John 3:16, 20:31, Ro 6:23)- jUST BELIEVE you are saved by Jesus
Is a free good =)
Your econs abt christianity really requries shaping
UNDERSTAND = ECONS IS CREATED BY GOD
-
Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
you wanna talk econs - good
CPE
Sacrity of time of us need choice, secular or spiritual
O/c for spiritual commitment: Secular commitment
O/c of secular commitment: eternal dammation (if you are unbelivers) or guilt @ Bema throne (if you are believer)
Hence, the choice is easy, MB of secular is less than MC of secular (much less), hence, if you are rational, you would be wanting to know and seek god more
Plus, 2 ways, heaven + hell
No price is REQURIED to go to heaven, it is a free gift (Eph 2:8, John 3:16, 20:31, Ro 6:23)- jUST BELIEVE you are saved by Jesus
Is a free good =)
Your econs abt christianity really requries shaping
UNDERSTAND = ECONS IS CREATED BY GOD
Im not one to suffer fools. So i'll put this as simply as I can, and rip your troglodytic narrow minded argument apart in the process. Applying economics to discourse (what more one on religion and spirituality), you're just saying a lot about yourself.
O/c for spiritual commitment: Secular commitment
O/c of secular commitment: eternal dammation (if you are unbelivers) or guilt @ Bema throne (if you are believer)
Hence, the choice is easy, MB of secular is less than MC of secular (much less), hence, if you are rational, you would be wanting to know and seek god more
1. Who are you to determine the logical paradigm? In my opinion, and that of billions around the world, secular commitments are the single most important things in the universe. So watch all your "economics" fall apart =)
No price is REQURIED to go to heaven, it is a free gift (Eph 2:8, John 3:16, 20:31, Ro 6:23)- jUST BELIEVE you are saved by Jesus
Is a free good =)
2. I dont even have to put up a rebuttal here, I'll just use your words against yourself. Didnt you say that "O/c for spiritual commitment: Secular commitment" ? And as i said earlier, should secular commitments be the single most important aspect of one's life, there will be an immense price to pay to "go to heaven". Unless you're five years old and think that "price" only refers to currency, which appears to be the case.
Your econs abt christianity really requries shaping
UNDERSTAND = ECONS IS CREATED BY GOD
3. HA HA HA.
-
Originally posted by BanguIzai:
He uses the same nick to visit different forums.
Isn't it better, than if Someone seeks to hide his/her identity by using clones to visit different forums, right?
Using this to attack people shows your simplicity.
I'm not aware that you know Rooney9 intimately. Your tribute to a GREAT MAN is too simplistic!
Let me add on some more facts:
Rooney9 is a monk wannabe in order to escape NS reservist training.
He is the author of Loony9's Paradox! Lonny9's Paradox is ironic that it contains no irony! That makes this paraodx stands out from the rest of the well known paradoxes.
He is also the author of this memorable quote: "I have yet to see a coherent and logical replies posed by non believers"
Not only is he a model Buddhist, he is also a brilliant author!
Some people may be distraught at being unable to save his soul but their loss is surely the cretins'gain!
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'm not aware that you know Rooney9 intimately. Your tribute to a GREAT MAN is too simplistic!
Let me add on some more facts:
Rooney9 is a monk wannabe in order to escape NS reservist training.
He is the author of Loony9's Paradox! Lonny9's Paradox is ironic that it contains no irony! That makes this paraodx stands out from the rest of the well known paradoxes.
He is also the author of this memorable quote: "I have yet to see a coherent and logical replies posed by non believers"
Not only is he a model Buddhist, he is also a brilliant author!
Some people may be distraught at being unable to save his soul but their loss is surely the cretins'gain!
I know you are a model christian like Rony Tan I see. no wonder mudslinging and name calling are your traits, little wonder.
-
Originally posted by AdamLyon:
Just wanna say smthing, hope to be as neutral as possible, and not offend anyone, ok?
I personally operate on this little thing called Suspension Of Disbelief.
Also, we still know far, far, too little about the Universe and the Past. We're still too "young" to be going around saying "this doesn't exist" and "that doesn't exist". Or even "this exists" and "that exists", for that matter.
hi mate,
To being with, how do you know you know far too little? How would you know that we're still too "young" without having a basis to compare it on?
With your system of thought positing that mankind knows little to believe with, are you not implying that other philosophical or religious systems are misguided when they posit that they know a bit more?
It's like the analogy commonly used of blind men touching an elephant at different positions and coming with different descriptions of the elephant. But the one who's proposing this analogy is also suggesting that he has a bird's eye view of the whole situation to start with. Which is implicitly another truth claim or a value judgment that is thinly masked at best.
-
Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
i agree that (secular) wisdom cannot coexsist with god as he cannot be explained fully by our wisdom
Some cases
Actually there are much more scientific and archaelogical edvidence to prove darwin to be right than creation
WHy?
Archaelogical edividence is based on our secular wisdom, which god power we cannot fully explain
However, we need to have complete faith in God (Ephesians 2:8) as he had loved us so much (John 3:16).
Hence, let us always rely on God strength for us to understand and comprehend him totally
Evidence is neutral, interpretation of that evidence is not.
-
Originally posted by 24/7:
hi mate,
To being with, how do you know you know far too little? How would you know that we're still too "young" without having a basis to compare it on?
With your system of thought positing that mankind knows little to believe with, are you not implying that other philosophical or religious systems are misguided when they posit that they know a bit more?
It's like the analogy commonly used of blind men touching an elephant at different positions and coming with different descriptions of the elephant. But the one who's proposing this analogy is also suggesting that he has a bird's eye view of the whole situation to start with. Which is implicitly another truth claim or a value judgment that is thinly masked at best.
To 24/7,
Firstly, thank you for the comment! Yup, you make a good point, and i almost thought i had been caught(in my own logic), until i re-read my original post. -->
Not to argue semantics with you, but let me re-cap. I do believe i said that:
~Basically we don't know enough to say "god doesn't exist", AND "god does exist".
Both. What did i base that on?
~Personally i feel that since we haven't even travelled to Mars yet (which is the nearest planet by FAR), or even discovered any TRACE of extraterrestrial life(not to mention actual aliens),
therefore, we cannot yet affirmatively say "There is no god" or "There is a god".--------NOW, i definitely see the point of your disastisfaction with my comment. Your reading of my meaning is basically correct, but perhaps your logic to reach your conclusion is a little too.. absolute. There is not just ONE way to take what i said.
==> Although it may certainly seem like I'm implying that Religion is misguided, I haven't actually gone that far.I'm saying, "nobody can be 100% sure". And that THUS, we should all be tolerant of what others believe in. (I.E: NOBODY CAN/SHOULD SAY THAT THE OTHER IS WRONG, catch my drift?)
And in the first place, i don't think that any religion is about proving to the rest of the world that "Our religion is correct, is absolute, you must believe"...
~~~~~~~~~IN A NUTSHELL,
-Yes, i said we know too little to confirm ANY side.
-However, my saying that (E.G.) "Christians or Non-christians both cannot be 100% sure that christ/god exists or not", IS NOT EQUAL TO saying Christians are "misguided"!-In fact, if you want to take an extreme reading of my words(as you have), you could even say that I'm taking Christianity's side, by telling the Evolutionists: "Hey, you can't be sure either!" (that there is not some supreme being looking over/guiding us.)
To dispute your use of the [Elephant Analogy] in this case,
i believe that i would actually be ANOTHER blind man, telling the other 3 that "Hey guys, we ALL can't see, we ALL can't be 100% sure, so why don't we just leave it at that for now?" :)
Come on, mate, since when is saying "We all don't know enough", equal to implying "Hehe, actually i know everything", or "Hehe, Side B is actually foolish?" Isn't that your own suspicion or defensiveness, showing through?
Again, i hope this makes sense to you and others. I am not arguing for the sake of picking a fight, i simply explain myself more clearly so nobody will misinterpret my words, and think that I am taking sides or belittling any side.
I'M NOT. -
Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:
I've actually noticed that most people with exceptional wisdom or intelligence have trouble accepting god. I'm sure most of you will have read about tensions between the Church and brilliant scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and thinkers throughout history. In so many cases, these great minds have either been persecuted for their alleged "heresy" or silently acquiesced in fear. I've seen it too, in my professors, teachers and colleagues, many of whom grew up in fully religious families but strayed away as they matured cognitively. Other exceptional personalities like Mother Teresa (as seen in another article on this forum) had profound doubts about god. Even numerous stars in Hollywood (the true theatrical talents, not attention whores like paris hilton) have turned to other religions.
I speak through personal experience because I was once christian but i felt that something was inherently wrong with the fundamentals of the religion. Truthfully ask yourself, take away the comforting words of your church mates and pastors, take away the companionship of the congregation, take away the egocentric self-assuredness of "being saved". Now do you still TRULY love your God?
(to all my christian friends out there, I sincerely apologise if you are offended, these are genuine contemplations of mine and I want to seek your opinions with absolutely no ill-intent)
think you might have some problematic elements in your statements - how would you define exceptional? Does Einstein count? Even if these people who are intelligent have trouble believing in the existence of God, does that indicate the presence of a causative relationship between belief and intelligence? Could it not be possible that there are other extraneous reasons that perpetuate the absence of belief? E.g. pride? Moral? Self desire / whim/ fancy? Immense desire for self autonomy? Lack of exposure?
For that matter, i'm not sure what qualifies as intelligent in your case but I would remind one of the modern day examples of Francis Collins (current director of the National Institute of Health in the US and previous head of the Human Genome Project), John Lennox (maths prof at Oxford), John Polkinghorne (Cambridge prof), Richard Swinburne, Alister McGrath, the many creation scientists and who hold PhDs (if those are indicators of intelligence), etc... I mean, there's no lack of intelligent people who also believe in God. So what's your point? Argument from numbers - that there are MORE people who don't believe in God than those who do? Argument from authority - that because these more intelligent individuals don't believe, therefore unlikely to be true?
but i felt that something was inherently wrong with the fundamentals of the religion
Christianity has always been counter cultural. Then and now. Maybe some thing is inherently wrong, or maybe you don't understand the "religion" well enough, maybe you weren't taught properly.
Truthfully ask yourself, take away the comforting words of your church mates and pastors, take away the companionship of the congregation, take away the egocentric self-assuredness of "being saved". Now do you still TRULY love your God?
Christianity is not egocentric, it's being concerned primarily about God, followed by the welfare of others, e.g. other-centred. You see this teaching peppered throughout Scriptures. Being saved is nothing one should boast about (Ephesians 2:8-9), One of the characteristics of a member of the kingdom of God, a true believer not a cultural Christian, is that found in Matthew 5:3 where he realizes that if not for God, he would remain spiritually bankrupt. Thus the "assuredness" that is derived from this state, does not come from the self but rightfully from God, for being found in Christ, - "if not for the grace of God, I would not be saved at all. Therefore i should not congratulate myself too much but live out the result of my saving faith"
It's also not the comforting words or the companionship that make one truly love God. There are people who do not enjoy such privileges and in fact, suffer much for the cause of Christ - think of the early Christians (thrown into lions' den for not renouncing their faith, where is the comfort in that??), Paul the Apostle, the nameless missionaries who tread into unknown territory away from the comfort of their church, or the countless martyrs who are gunned down for holding onto their profession of the faith in conflict situations, myself, etc... so how? At any rate, your question will only filter out cultural Christians from true believers (1 Corinthians 11:19).