Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:This is a classical misleading catholics are now posting to lure christians away from the christians faith, the apostle creed does not contain the "holy, catholic church", that is the nicene creed.
Saying of this,. the catholic just meant all people are united together. It does not mean the pagan practices catholics are now practising nowadays.
Some differences bet Christians and Catholics
Christians: Salvation Alone (Eph 2;8-9, Rom 6:23, John 3:16, )
Catholics: Salvation + works (proved clearly wrong by Eph 2:8-9
Christians; Christ alone (John 20:31)
Catholics: Christ + Mary (Definitely absurd as mary is certainly weak spiritualy, one instances is she bring oil to Jesus tomb to dress Jesus dead body, if she is really greater than Jesus, greater than God , she should know Jesus is resurrected.
A simple google search will verify that the original text of the Apostles’ Creed refers to the ‘One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’. St Ignatius of Antioch called the Christians ‘Catholic’ (meaning universal) back then in 110 AD, and this same Catholic Christian Church has survived for over 2000 years to this very day.
As for the ‘ol faith vs works debate, Catholics completely agree that we need to have faith in our Lord. At the same time, we need to show that we desire His salvation by helping others with sincere acts of love and charity. There’s no such thing as ‘guaranteed salvation’ as we all have free will and Jesus is not going to ‘force’ His salvation on anyone.
If you notice, this essential doctrine does not conflict with any part of the Bible. As for Eph 2:8-9, pls read the very next verse to get the context of what St Paul is trying to say in this passage. Also, if you read Matt 7:16-23, Matt 25:31-46, James 2:14-26 plus pretty much all the parables that Jesus spoke about, the message is clear: it is not enough to just sit back and profess our faith in the Lord, we must also be good people and do good.
There’s Always Something About Mary :) She’s certainly not God (which is why Catholics worship only God), but the greatest of all saints. To fully understand the vital role that Mary plays require lots of chapters (and plenty of time!). An excellent place to start may be - www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.htm.
I personally experienced Mother Mary’s guidance and gentle urging in drawing me closer to her Son. To me, if God can entrust a simple village girl like Mary to give birth to, nurture and protect Jesus Christ through the formative years of His life, she’s gotta be someone really special :)
Originally posted by laurence82:haha, anti-Catholics now start creeping in
hi laurence,
doen't matter to catholics like me at all. But to some other catholics.. maybe.. Anyway, on the whole, catholics are pretty sensible people and tolerant too!
We know our faiith has collision with the protestant for many years.. They forget that we have the sacred tradition (events or faith practise not recorded in the bible during the apostles time and during the early church). Their faith is purely or literally sola scripture or bible based. we also have our bible or sacred scriptures. Without knowing or reading the whole history of the catholic church with open mind or experience or ask our faith eg why pray the rosary?? why do catholics have this devotion? why catholics and some christians love Mary so much? why this why that? they condemn our practise eg devotion to mary is paganistic or idolatory.. We as catholics are taught to respect and cherish other people religions or practices..thru dialogs (very important to prevent misunderstanding) and understanding of their faith better cause utimately this translate to love and mutual respect which is healthy and good in the long run. At least prevent wars!. In fact the popes have always encourage dialogs..However that does not mean we cannot spread the good news of christ to others. We can.. however in a more holistic. way.. thru our witness and our works eg schools, hospitals.. We do not proselyte or force people to accept. as this would create misunderstanding..
Dun forget that catholics have the bible, sacred scripture and sacred tradition and a history of 2000 years old.
God bless you!
Originally posted by Servant:A simple google search will verify that the original text of the Apostles’ Creed refers to the ‘One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’. St Ignatius of Antioch called the Christians ‘Catholic’ (meaning universal) back then in 110 AD, and this same Catholic Christian Church has survived for over 2000 years to this very day.
As for the ‘ol faith vs works debate, Catholics completely agree that we need to have faith in our Lord. At the same time, we need to show that we desire His salvation by helping others with sincere acts of love and charity. There’s no such thing as ‘guaranteed salvation’ as we all have free will and Jesus is not going to ‘force’ His salvation on anyone.
If you notice, this essential doctrine does not conflict with any part of the Bible. As for Eph 2:8-9, pls read the very next verse to get the context of what St Paul is trying to say in this passage. Also, if you read Matt 7:16-23, Matt 25:31-46, James 2:14-26 plus pretty much all the parables that Jesus spoke about, the message is clear: it is not enough to just sit back and profess our faith in the Lord, we must also be good people and do good.
There’s Always Something About Mary :) She’s certainly not God (which is why Catholics worship only God), but the greatest of all saints. To fully understand the vital role that Mary plays require lots of chapters (and plenty of time!). An excellent place to start may be - www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.htm.
I personally experienced Mother Mary’s guidance and gentle urging in drawing me closer to her Son. To me, if God can entrust a simple village girl like Mary to give birth to, nurture and protect Jesus Christ through the formative years of His life, she’s gotta be someone really special :)
hi servant.. good explanation.. haha you can be the catholic apologetic for this forum. !!
In case some of you may not known the word apologetic means.. a person who explain faith to others..
Abt mary.. I for one have literallly sense mary love for me.. One fine day alone in church sense the fragrance of the roses while praying. I beleive it was mary or some other saints. My favorite saint is st therese of liseux..One night after praying to her meaning ask her to intercede for me. I felt the smell of roses on my pillow after lying down. her presence is felt . there are so other times i smelt roses or fragance smell .
God Bless!
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Why catholics use rosary beads?
hi pepper..
sorry for the wrong answer. i believe you ask why do catholics use rosary bead. they use beads to count the no. of hail marys (10 beads for 10 hail marys or a decade). If you dun have the rosary with you, you can use fingers to count (some use toes.. haha!)
We dun just recite the hail marys..we meditate on the mysteries. Each day it is a different set of mysteries eg today being thursday.. its s luminous mysteries.. Every decade has a mystery. Since there are 5 decades in a rosary, there are 5 mysteries. For luminous mysteries, they are..1) baptism of our lord 2) wedding at cana 3) proclamation of the Gospel 4) transfiguration our Lord 5) Institution of the Holy eucharist as a sacrament.
The mysteries are Joyful (said on monday and sat), Sorrowful (tues and fri) Glorious (sund and wed) lumunious (thurs).
Hope that helps
God Bless!
Originally posted by Positron:
I am nt christian. But i dun see where bible tells us to pray to Mary.
hi positron,
i understand where you come from.. Catholics dun "pray" to mary.. In fact she is human like us. But the fact that she was chosen by God to become mother of Jesus, who is the 2nd person of the Trinity. (remember there are 3 person in 1 God?) is something very significant.. don't you agree? The catholic Theologians came to agree and proclaim that Mary is sinless unlike us. Otherwise how can concieve Jesus who is Both God and man like us except sin? tio boh? in actual fact, she was chsoen by God on this mission. The mission: salvation of mankind and redemption of sins caused by Adam and eve. She is in fact the co-participator in this mission. Without her "yes" to God (i.e to give birth to Jesus thru the intervention of the Holy spirit when shw was a virgin at that time), we may not have Jesus coming to redeem us. Of course, God can do it in other ways!
So therefore she hold the highest place among the saints in the catholic church. In fact, she is known as the Mother of God and also.. Immaculate Conception among others.
She was very close to Jesus during the early years of his childhood. and also during his last days esp during cruxifiction. In fact, she has a very deep relationship with her son., Jesus. she pondered her mission and put her entire trust to God knowing that God knows what is best for her.
While dying on the cross, Jesus entrusted John to Mary.
So, as catholics we can pray to God directly, but if there are other avenues to pray, such as asking Mary or other saints to pray for us.. why not??
I hope i'm not long winded in the explanation haha!
God Bless
sigh ....
why does this misconception still exist ?
we don't pray to mary, we don't worship her. She's the mother of Jesus, and thus one of the subjects of veneration in the catholic church.
as to other points, here's my personal feelings, of why I became a born-again catholic.
Lots of other christian churches preaches salvation only for those who've received the faith, I rejected this outright. I refuse to believe that my loved ones, my parents, my relatives, my friends of other beliefs and faiths would all go to hell simply because they didn't have the chance to receive the word of jesus as I did, or that they honestly chose not to believe.
In the catholic church, we NEVER preach that "if you're not with us, you're bound for hell". It is part of our belief that there are inherent goodness in everyone, that there are good people of other faiths, and that they'll all be subjected to God's mercy regardless of what they believe in. How can I believe that all others who've done good all their lives would be consigned to hell simply because they didn't receive the word ? or honestly don't belive in what we believe in ? Or that those who've died before they've received the word are lost ? This is absolute rubbish, God is greater than that.
In my RCIA class, one of the first things they tell you, is that it doesn't really matter what you believe in, if you're a buddhist, then be a good buddhist, if you're a hindu, be a good hindu, if you're a muslim, be a good muslim, etc etc. If course, if you are called by jesus, then that's a different story, you can't go back to sleep once you've been woken up. But if you're not, if you are uncomfortable with what's been preached, or if you're happy with your own faith, it's okay ! .... no one would ever tell you you're automatically consigned to hell, cos you won't be. That's why we are not as preachy nor as missionary about our faith as some other christians are. We were told; be a good person, live your life well, then, regardless of your faith you'll be given God's mercy.
And this was what really touched me, that made me take the leap of faith.
and of course, if you reject what I've said, and what I stand for, it's okay .... no one, not me, nor God, would hold it against you.
Thanks for your beautiful sharing Fatum, I wholeheartedly agree with you! I remember a priest telling us that the day we judge others or we think we are better than others is the day we have failed as Christians.
It's never an easy road to travel, but it's made a bit easier by knowing that fellow Catholics (and many other brothers and sisters) exist here :)
Originally posted by Toogood:
hi positron,i understand where you come from.. Catholics dun "pray" to mary.. In fact she is human like us. But the fact that she was chosen by God to become mother of Jesus, who is the 2nd person of the Trinity. (remember there are 3 person in 1 God?) is something very significant.. don't you agree? The catholic Theologians came to agree and proclaim that Mary is sinless unlike us. Otherwise how can concieve Jesus who is Both God and man like us except sin? tio boh? in actual fact, she was chsoen by God on this mission. The mission: salvation of mankind and redemption of sins caused by Adam and eve. She is in fact the co-participator in this mission. Without her "yes" to God (i.e to give birth to Jesus thru the intervention of the Holy spirit when shw was a virgin at that time), we may not have Jesus coming to redeem us. Of course, God can do it in other ways!
So therefore she hold the highest place among the saints in the catholic church. In fact, she is known as the Mother of God and also.. Immaculate Conception among others.
She was very close to Jesus during the early years of his childhood. and also during his last days esp during cruxifiction. In fact, she has a very deep relationship with her son., Jesus. she pondered her mission and put her entire trust to God knowing that God knows what is best for her.
While dying on the cross, Jesus entrusted John to Mary.
So, as catholics we can pray to God directly, but if there are other avenues to pray, such as asking Mary or other saints to pray for us.. why not??
I hope i'm not long winded in the explanation haha!
God Bless
Thanks for explaining.
Originally posted by Servant:Thanks for your beautiful sharing Fatum, I wholeheartedly agree with you! I remember a priest telling us that the day we judge others or we think we are better than others is the day we have failed as Christians.
It's never an easy road to travel, but it's made a bit easier by knowing that fellow Catholics (and many other brothers and sisters) exist here :)
Oh I was just tired of a lot of those militant and sanctimonious young kids who professes to be christians but are closer in their thinking to the taleban that's all. I think the real message of their chosen religion was lost on them.
God is God, above all things, and of all things, creatures and human beings. If you believe that he's created everything, seen and unseen, then how can you believe that he's exclusive to you, or your group, alone ? That's just sanctimonious rubbish. Jesus died on the cross for everyone, ESPECIALLY those who didn't believe in him. That is the whole point, of what he did, isn't it ? He died for all of our sins, especially for those who didn't believed in him and rejected him. This sacrifice is not exclusive to catholics, or even any group of christians alone, but to all of mankind.
God is also not a petty God, not bothered by how you chose to worship him, what you call him, or if you even honestly believe or not believe in him. He's greater than all that. Centuries ago people fought and killed each other over whether God was in a piece of bread or a cup of wine or not, or whether to call him yahweh or allah. They still do, it's so sad isn't it ? Do you think that's the intention of God ?
Luke 10:25. In this parable, who do you think is closer to God, and to God's grace ? The samaritian, or the priest ?
I think this question can easily be answered by people of any religion.
Acknowledging God and Jesus alone does not confer automatic grace. Similarly, the inherent goodness and compassion of a person would bring them closer to God, and to God's mercy, regardless of what they believe in.
Originally posted by Fatum:sigh ....
why does this misconception still exist ?
we don't pray to mary, we don't worship her. She's the mother of Jesus, and thus one of the subjects of veneration in the catholic church.
as to other points, here's my personal feelings, of why I became a born-again catholic.
Lots of other christian churches preaches salvation only for those who've received the faith, I rejected this outright. I refuse to believe that my loved ones, my parents, my relatives, my friends of other beliefs and faiths would all go to hell simply because they didn't have the chance to receive the word of jesus as I did, or that they honestly chose not to believe.
In the catholic church, we NEVER preach that "if you're not with us, you're bound for hell". It is part of our belief that there are inherent goodness in everyone, that there are good people of other faiths, and that they'll all be subjected to God's mercy regardless of what they believe in. How can I believe that all others who've done good all their lives would be consigned to hell simply because they didn't receive the word ? or honestly don't belive in what we believe in ? Or that those who've died before they've received the word are lost ? This is absolute rubbish, God is greater than that.
In my RCIA class, one of the first things they tell you, is that it doesn't really matter what you believe in, if you're a buddhist, then be a good buddhist, if you're a hindu, be a good hindu, if you're a muslim, be a good muslim, etc etc. If course, if you are called by jesus, then that's a different story, you can't go back to sleep once you've been woken up. But if you're not, if you are uncomfortable with what's been preached, or if you're happy with your own faith, it's okay ! .... no one would ever tell you you're automatically consigned to hell, cos you won't be. That's why we are not as preachy nor as missionary about our faith as some other christians are. We were told; be a good person, live your life well, then, regardless of your faith you'll be given God's mercy.
And this was what really touched me, that made me take the leap of faith.
and of course, if you reject what I've said, and what I stand for, it's okay .... no one, not me, nor God, would hold it against you.
tks fatum for yr beautiful sharing..
which parish rcia did you attend?
God Bless
Originally posted by Positron:
Thanks for explaining.
you're welcome..
God bless !
Catholics are saved by faith plus works or faith only? Care to elaborate more?
Originally posted by Positron:Catholics are saved by faith plus works or faith only? Care to elaborate more?
faith plus works.. we can't just have faith alone.. .. but also by our merits.. .. they both go hand in hand.. sorry can't explain in theological terms.. maybe servant or fatum can help..
sorry for that..
Originally posted by Toogood:
faith plus works.. we can't just have faith alone.. .. but also by our merits.. .. they both go hand in hand.. sorry can't explain in theological terms.. maybe servant or fatum can help..sorry for that..
Thanks for ur help.I will see if servant and fatum can help me.
Originally posted by Asromanista2001:Catholic or Catatonic................what's the diff...............
all those priests should be called ..........Father Monthly 10%...............
hello? do your research please. Beneficial to you too.
Originally posted by Positron:What are the main differences between a Christian and a Catholics? I am curious.
You mean Protestant and Catholic?
The Catholic Church is the world's largest, and Christianity's oldest, religious body. Her more than 1 billion members inhabit the width and breadth of the earth and the number continues to grow. Article dated April this year that the population has grown by another 12% http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0428/catholic.html
Catholics believe that theirs is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, firstly, because theirs is the only Christian Church that goes back in history to the time of Christ; secondly, because theirs is the only Christian Church which possesses the invincible unity, the intrinsic holiness, the continual universality and the indisputable apostolicity which Christ said would distinguish His true Church; and thirdly, because the Apostles and primitive Church Fathers, who certainly were members of Christ's true Church, all professed membership in the same Catholic Church (See Apostles' Creed and the Primitive Christian letters).
Protestant Church (which commonly mistaken as The ONE Christianity) was only founded five hundred years ago when some members of the Catholic Church protested against the original teachings (that's how the name protestants came about).
Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:EXCUSE ME
Don't anyhow quote the creed for nothing, the catholic mentioned there is not equal to the catholics now
The Catholic Church is not equal to the church you go to because the former was founded 2000 years ago while the latter at the most 500 years (if it is a "mega church", probably less than 30 years).
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Wad's catholic seven sacrements?
Catholics believe in seven sacraments because Christ instituted seven; because the Apostles and Church Fathers believed in seven; because the second Ecumenical Council of Lyons (1274) defined seven; and because the Ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-1563) confirmed seven. In short, the enumeration, seven, arises from the perpetual tradition of Christian belief, which explains why that enumeration is accepted not only by Catholics, but by all of the other ancient and semi-ancient Christian communities, Egyptian Coptic, Ethiopian Monophysite, Syrian Jacobite, Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox.
To understand what a sacrament is, and what it does for a person, one must know the correct, the traditional Christian, definition of a sacrament. Properly defined, a sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace"(holiness) to the soul...that is to say, it is a divinely prescribed ceremony of the Church in which the words and action combine to form what is at the same time both a sign of divine grace and a fount of divine grace. When this special grace, distinct from ordinary, inspirational grace, is imparted to the soul, the Holy Spirit of God is imparted to the soul, imbuing the soul with divine life, uniting the soul to Christ.
As the Scriptures point out, this grace is the grace of salvation, without it man is, in a very real sense, isolated from Christ. And as the Scriptures point out, Christ gave His Church seven sacraments to serve as well-springs of this ineffable, soul-saving grace, the grace which flows from His sacrifice on Calvary:
BAPTISM—the sacrament of spiritual rebirth through which we are made children of God and heirs of Heaven: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of god." (John 3:5. Also see Acts 2:38, Rom. 6:2-6).
CONFIRMATION—the sacrament which confers the Holy Spirit to make us strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ: "Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost....Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost." (Acts 8:14-17. Also see Acts 19:6).
The EUCHARIST—the sacrament, also known as Holy Communion, which nourishes the soul with the true Flesh and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, under the appearance, or sacramental veil, of bread and wine: And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many." (Mark 14:22-24. Also see Matt. 26:26-28, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:52-54, 1 Cor. 10:16).
PENANCE—the sacrament, also known as Confession, through which Christ forgives sin and restores the soul to grace: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (John 20:22-23. Also see Matt. 18:18 ).
EXTREME UNCTION—the sacrament, sometimes called the Last Anointing, which strengthens the sick and sanctifies the dying: "Is any many sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord...and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14-. Also see Mark 6:12-13).
HOLY ORDERS—the sacrament of ordination which empowers priests to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, administer the sacraments, and officiate over all the other proper affairs of the Church: "For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins...Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:1-4. Also see Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 4:14). Also: "And taking bread, he gave thanks, and broke; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me." (Luke 22:19).
MATRIMONY—the sacrament which unites a man and woman in a holy and indissoluble bond: "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." (Matt. 19:5-6. Also see Mark 10:7-9, Eph. 5:22-32).
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Why catholics use rosary beads?
The word rosary comes from Latin and means a garland of roses, the rose being one of the flowers used to symbolize the Virgin Mary. If you were to ask what object is most emblematic of Catholics, people would probably say, "The rosary, of course." We’re familiar with the images: the silently moving lips of the old woman fingering her beads; the oversized rosary hanging from the waist of the wimpled nun; more recently, the merely decorative rosary hanging from the rearview mirror.
After Vatican II the rosary fell into relative disuse. The same is true for Marian devotions as a whole. But in recent years the rosary has made a comeback, and not just among Catholics. Many Protestants now say the rosary, recognizing it as a truly biblical form of prayer—after all, the prayers that comprise it come mainly from the Bible.
The Rosary is a progression of many prayers, the Apostles' Creed, the Lord's Prayer, the Gloria, the Hail Mary and the Salve Regina, and these prayers are accompanied by many holy meditations. As the Rosary progresses, Catholics meditate on the joyful, the sorrowful, and the glorious mysteries of the life of Christ and His Mother.
Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:This is a classical misleading catholics are now posting to lure christians away from the christians faith, the apostle creed does not contain the "holy, catholic church", that is the nicene creed.
Saying of this,. the catholic just meant all people are united together. It does not mean the pagan practices catholics are now practising nowadays.
Some differences bet Christians and Catholics
Christians: Salvation Alone (Eph 2;8-9, Rom 6:23, John 3:16, )
Catholics: Salvation + works (proved clearly wrong by Eph 2:8-9
Christians; Christ alone (John 20:31)
Catholics: Christ + Mary (Definitely absurd as mary is certainly weak spiritualy, one instances is she bring oil to Jesus tomb to dress Jesus dead body, if she is really greater than Jesus, greater than God , she should know Jesus is resurrected.
I believe your pastor, bible teacher have misinformed you about many stuff. But I don't blame them cuz they,like you have been misinformed too.
The right place to go for information about Catholic belief, in fact the only place to go for complete and authoritative information, is the Catholic Church herself. As any detective will tell you, no investigation is quite so complete as an on the spot investigation.
Originally posted by Positron:Abt Mary part.
Bible never ask us to pray to Mary. I have read through all the new testament.
Jesus told us to pray to heavenly father in his name.
Catholics do not worship Mary, the Mother of Christ, as though she were a deity. Of all the misconceptions about Catholic belief and practice, this one is the most absurd. Catholics are just as aware as Protestants that Mary was a human creature, and therefore not entitled to the honours which are reserved to God alone. What many non-Catholics mistake for adoration is a very profound love and veneration, nothing more. Mary is not adored, first because God forbids it, and secondly because the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, which is based on Divine Law, forbids it. Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex strictly forbids adoration of anyone other than the Holy Trinity. However, Catholics do feel that Mary is entitled to a great measure of exaltation because, in choosing her as the Mother of Redemption, God Himself exalted her, exalted her more than any other human person before or since. Catholics heap tribute and honour on Mary because they earnestly desire to be "followers of God, as a most dear children." (Eph. 5:1). Mary herself prophesied: "For behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me: and holy is his name." (Luke 1:48-49). Catholics know that every bit of the glory they give to Mary redounds to the glory of her divine Son, just as Mary magnified God, not herself, when Elizabeth blessed her. (Luke 1:41-55). They know that the closer they draw to her, the closer they draw to Him who was born of her. In the year 434 St. Vincent of Lerins defended Christian devotion to Mary this way: "Therefore, may God forbid that anyone should attempt to defraud Holy Mary of her privilege of divine grace and her special glory. For by a unique favour of our Lord and God she is confessed to be the most true and most blessed Mother of God." Today 75% of all Christians still hold to this same view.
Originally posted by Positron:Catholics are saved by faith plus works or faith only? Care to elaborate more?
Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What our Lord demands is "faith that worketh by charity." (Gal. 5:6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, our Lord answered: "Keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfilment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law," he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.
The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6), only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.
St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: "But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Tim. 5:8 ). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He "shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers." (Luke 12:46).
Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: "For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works." (Matt. 16:27). "And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that "every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour." (1 Cor. 3:8 ). "For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints." (Heb. 6:10). "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day; and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming." (2 Tim. 4:7-8 ).
Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say: "We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do." (Luke 17:10). As St. Augustine (5th century) stated: All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts."
Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written: "...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Cor. 13:2). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written: "Do you see by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:24-26). Or: "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" (James 2:14). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: "Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure you calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the primitive Christian Fathers would not have advocated good works in such powerful words. Wrote St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers: "For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do, if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other's company, and agree together and fight side by side to sen man in the Presence of God." (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching). Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.
Originally posted by Positron:
Thanks for ur help.I will see if servant and fatum can help me.
Well, I'm just back from a friend's hindu wedding ceremony at his temple, and the togo session afterwards, so bear with me, cos I've got lots of fermeneted butter milk and curry and beer swirling inside me right now.
Firstly, what kind of answer are you expecting ? If you expect one of those chim chim theological replies you'd be much better off asking a catholic priest, cos I'm not one.
But my answer to that would be, it doesn't really matter !
It's simple really, during the great schism of the catholic church, the one that lead to the protestant reformation, one of the points the protestants held was that faith alone, is neccessary and sufficient for salvation. I've gone through above why I, and the catholic church, rejects this very exclusive position.
Take my hindu friend who just got married for example. He's a good man, pious in the practise of his religion, fillial to his parents, generous to his friends and the less fortunate, and he has a good heart. What sort of a friend I would be, if in my secret heart I think he's going to hell simply because he's of a different faith ?
Perhaps faith in christ alone can lead you to salvation, but the lack of this faith doesn't automatically damm you either.
You see, we catholics believe that there's a moral law written in the heart of each person, a moral code from God (somewhere in jeremiah). It's intuitive, when we do something wrong, we know it by instinct. For example, the commandments say, thou shall not kill, but you need not be a christian, or know all the 10 commandments, to know that killing is wrong. All other religions teach that, and even for many agnostics and atheists, they'll instinctively know that it's wrong to kill. So, you are really following God's law even if you don't know God, or honestly reject God. We also believe that Christ died on the cross to redeem the whole world.
The catholic church hold that salvation is indeed possible, for those who live an upright life and follow the callings of their conscience (which is really the laws and moral code from God), but are outside of the catholic church, or are not even christian. Because, really, you are already unknowingly following God. A person who sincerely follows the dictates of his conscience, already has the spirit of christ inside him, even if he doesn't explicitly recognize it. So, if you, through ignorance of no fault of your own, that is to say, if you were born into another religion, honestly chose another religion, or even have no religion, chose honestly not to believe in God, or call him by another name, or worship him in a different way, you may, through what you have done, through God's mercy, still attain salvation.
To me, this is something so easy, and good, to believe in. Imagine a good buddhist for example, buddhists do not believe in the concept of God, but I think they are often the ones who follows most closely God's moral code. They do not kill, not even any other living creatures if they could, they do lots of good works and show tremendous compassion to the others around them. Don't you suppose God would find it easier to admit such people by their works, and their hearts, into heaven than some really bad and "sinful" christians by their faiths alone ? Or a good muslim, someone who fasts and prays 5 times a day, who give alms and helps the poor and live a moral and upright life ? Do you think it matters to God by what name you call him, or how you worship him ? Do you think God is bothered by all these different doctrine and squabblings among men ? God is greater than all that of course.
So to those who thinks they are assured of salvation just because they've received christ, do you think you're worthy of that ? To those who thinks anyone who doesn't subscribe to their own dogma is damned, by what right do you claim God's mercy and salvation for you and your group alone ? Don't you think you've seriously underestimated God's grace and mercy ? Don't you think you're making a mockery of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, who died for the whole world ?
Now that's why, I chose to become a catholic, and that's why I hold the catholic church dear.
So dude, don't be too bothered by all these theological nuances, all these "my church is better than yours" stuff. It really doesn't matter. What's more important is what's inside your heart, and what your heart tells you to do, because if you do so, you're already unconsiously seeking God, and following Christ. Open your heart, and open your mind. Seek, and ye shall find.
Originally posted by Toogood:
as I've mentioned before, St Joseph's BT.
I'm a sponsor at this year's RCIA too, the classes are held every monday at eight for the english one.
Thanks for telling me info on catholics.