If God is all-knowing and knows what is going to happen
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why did he put the fruit so near Adam and Eve to "test their obedience"?
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This is very true. I respect everyone's religion. But whenever Christians try to force me to convert to their religion. I simply point out the logical inconsistencies with their worldview. One way I would do this is use the "Transcendental Argument for the Non Existence of God", aka. TANG.
How might TANG proceed? Consider logic. Logic presupposes that its principles are necessarily true. However, according to Christianity, God created everything, including logic; or at least everything, including logic, is dependent on God. But if something is created by or is dependent on God, it is not necessary--it is contingent on God. And if principles of logic are contingent on God, they are not logically necessary. Moreover, if principles of logic are contingent on God, God could change them. Thus, God could make the law of noncontradiction false; in other words, God could arrange matters so that a proposition and its negation were true at the same time. But this is absurd. How could God arrange matters so that New Zealand is south of China and that New Zealand is not south of it? So, one must conclude that logic is not dependent on God, and, insofar as the Christian world view assumes that logic so dependent, it is false.
Consider science. It presupposes the uniformity of nature: that natural laws govern the world and that there are no violations of such laws. However, Christianity presupposes that there are miracles in which natural laws are violated. Since to make sense of science one must assume that there are no miracles, one must further assume that Christianity is false. To put this in a different way: Miracles by definition are violations of laws of nature that can only be explained by God's intervention. Yet science assumes that insofar as an event as an explanation at all, it has a scientific explanation--one that does not presuppose God. Thus, doing, science assumes that the Christian world view is false.
Consider morality. Christian morality is some version of the Divine Command Theory, the view that moral obligation is dependent on the will of God. But such a view is incompatible with objective morality. On the one hand, on this view what is moral is a function of the arbitrary will of God; for instance, if God wills that cruelty for its own sake is good, then it is. On the other hand, determining the will of God is impossible since there are different alleged sources of this will (The Bible, the Koran, The Book of Mormon, etc) and different interpretations of what these sources say; moreover; there is no rational way to reconcile these differences. Thus, the existence of an objective morality presupposes the falsehood of the Christian worldview.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
If God is all-knowing and knows what is going to happen, then why did he put the fruit so near Adam and Eve to "test their obedience"?
He already knew the results so why would he need to test them?
This is the 1st contradiction from the bible.
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John 15:15-17
It is not you who chose me, but it is I who chose you and appointed you that you might go and be fruitful and that your fruit might remain; so that whatever petition you present to the Father in my name He may give you. Thus I command you to love one another.”
It is preached by Christianity that God wants all to be saved. Here is a verse which says it is he who chooses us not us who chooses him. Contradiction!
Luke 1:37 “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
Contradiction!
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God already know what will happen and you know God created the man with a free will, We are not robots that God can control us easily we are lucky to have this.
Well in fact all problems and things happen to our life is a test not for God but for us, God want to teach us a lesson it is like a teacher giving students an exam.
God love us all! :)
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you understand?
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Talking about TANG, we have a direct opposing version of it call TAG, The Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God.
To me, the whole system of transcendental argument (be it for existence or non-existence of God) is a total BULLSHIT, because it requires a PRESUPPOSITION to be made in the very beginning before the whole argument can proceed. In the case of TAG, it presupposes that the Christian God is the precondition of all human knowledge and experience. In TANG, it presupposes that logical principles are neccessary true.
An example of TAG proceeds as follows
- If there is no god, knowledge is not possible. (presupposing God is necessary for knowledge)
- Knowledge is possible (or some other statement pertaining to logic or morality).
- Therefore God exists.
Since you have already presupposed that the Christian God is the precondition of all human knowledge and experience in the first place, of course you will come to the conclusion that God exist lahhhhhhhhh..!!!!!!!!!!!
It is akin to setting the rules of the game by yourself in your favour. Shifting the goal-post for you to score easy goal.
Nothing "transcendental' about it lahhh........
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ehhhh..........how come all of a sudden so many 'new' forumers with 1or 2 posts on board ???????????
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Ghostpel,
thanks
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FlowerArt
thanks
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Presumption / presupposition is NOT EQUAL to Truth or Reality.
Pls don't any how INVENT your own EQUATION as and when you like lehhhhh.......
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
John 15:15-17
It is not you who chose me, but it is I who chose you and appointed you that you might go and be fruitful and that your fruit might remain; so that whatever petition you present to the Father in my name He may give you. Thus I command you to love one another.”
It is preached by Christianity that God wants all to be saved. Here is a verse which says it is he who chooses us not us who chooses him. Contradiction!
Luke 1:37 “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
Contradiction!
I can't get your point there at the Bible
John 15:15-17
(Verse 15) – We are not to relate to Him s His servants only, or even primarily, but as His friends. This is because He has treated us as friends and not as servants.
(Verse 16) – Christ chose them, not vice-versa; and they are to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains in order that the Father might answer their prayers.
(Verse 17) – We are commanded to do all that He has commanded, but especially that we love one another.
Luke 1:37
(Verse 37)- For with God nothing shall be impossible. That is consistent with his nature and perfections, with his counsels, purposes, and promises: every thing that he has said, purposed, or promised, he is able to do, and will; every word that he has spoken, every thing predicted by his prophets, or declared by his angels
God have a special gift for each and everyone of us, the gift is about being saved, It is only about you if you choose to accept it or not.
As I said earlier we have "free will" It is about only you and God if you do not accept Him as your savior it's your choice BUT be ready to suffer consequences after life.
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Hello Tcmc
****Answer me, FlowerArt, If you know your child is going to use the knife to kill himself, would you put the knife so near him?
Yes my child has free will and that is WHY i WOULD NOT put a knife near him to test his obedience. Do you understand?
Do you think Adam and Eve is a child?
Do you think a knife can kill a child easily? He or She will know it hurts! before he struck himself with a knife.
Additional
It is like living in a democratic country, Democracy means we have freedom, but do you think if I live in democratic county is it ok to kill somebody? it's my freedom?
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I have mentioned this before. when god created lucifer, does god knows lucifer is going to betray god? if he knew and yet he created lucifer. oh christians will say, free will, but then free will or not, god will know whether lucifer will betray him anyhow isnt it.
the thing is this, free will. when one dies, they will say its god will. so what free will are they refering to? what free will do you have then, since it is so fatalistic and pre-determined by god on when and how you die.
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Originally posted by FlowerArt:
God already know what will happen and you know God created the man with a free will, We are not robots that God can control us easily we are lucky to have this.
Well in fact all problems and things happen to our life is a test not for God but for us, God want to teach us a lesson it is like a teacher giving students an exam.
God love us all! :)
A typical response from a Christian.
You have not been through much in life to give a response like this. Taking exam is no problem when the student is well prepared he will pass. Life's lessons are different, so please don't compare. I hope you will meet a lot of testing by way of problems that cannot be solved to thank your God.
Your God is without compassion. Bless the wicked christians with their evildoings and let these evil christians do all they want to make other christians suffer. Favouritism !
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Originally posted by Ghostpel:
ehhhh..........how come all of a sudden so many 'new' forumers with 1or 2 posts on board ???????????
Christian to come to defend their faith.
Paper cannot wrap fire.
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Heya!
Lets go back and check the Topic Thread:
"Eternal Hope" "A place for Christians to meet and talk."
a PLACE FOR CHRISTIANS, not a christian? just go away on this Thread and respect our Beliefs we respect you also
Thanks!
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Originally posted by FlowerArt:
I can't get your point there at the Bible
John 15:15-17
(Verse 15) – We are not to relate to Him s His servants only, or even primarily, but as His friends. This is because He has treated us as friends and not as servants.
(Verse 16) – Christ chose them, not vice-versa; and they are to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains in order that the Father might answer their prayers.
(Verse 17) – We are commanded to do all that He has commanded, but especially that we love one another.
Luke 1:37
(Verse 37)- For with God nothing shall be impossible. That is consistent with his nature and perfections, with his counsels, purposes, and promises: every thing that he has said, purposed, or promised, he is able to do, and will; every word that he has spoken, every thing predicted by his prophets, or declared by his angels
God have a special gift for each and everyone of us, the gift is about being saved, It is only about you if you choose to accept it or not.
As I said earlier we have "free will" It is about only you and God if you do not accept Him as your savior it's your choice BUT be ready to suffer consequences after life.
Typical shallow Christian reply. Life is more than God. You don't have to quote me verses and tell me blah blah blah, I was a christian know the verses.
Talk crap ! Contradiction wor = Free will and God's chosen. Give free will to men to choose him as God and yet said he chooses humans not humans choosing him. Contradiction! Your christianity can never fight wit buddhism, buddhism is able to reply to questions.
You need to go through a lot of problems which cannot be solved in life in order to know your God is not all great!
Bilble is full of contradictions.
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Originally posted by FlowerArt:
Heya!
Lets go back and check the Topic Thread:
"Eternal Hope" "A place for Christians to meet and talk."
a PLACE FOR CHRISTIANS, not a christian? just go away on this Thread and respect our Beliefs we respect you also
Thanks!
No God's love and display of your arrogance/. Go away! No way. This is a forum anyone can come here. Cannot handle questions ask people to go away, sore loser!
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Originally posted by FlowerArt:
Heya!
Lets go back and check the Topic Thread:
"Eternal Hope" "A place for Christians to meet and talk."
a PLACE FOR CHRISTIANS, not a christian? just go away on this Thread and respect our Beliefs we respect you also
Thanks!
You should be the one to go away, this thread is not created by you!
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A never ending DEBATE HAHAHA!
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jesus was a spacel alien too.he walked on water and a bright light shined at him from a cloud at night too.
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Originally posted by FlowerArt:
Heya!
Lets go back and check the Topic Thread:
"Eternal Hope" "A place for Christians to meet and talk."
a PLACE FOR CHRISTIANS, not a christian? just go away on this Thread and respect our Beliefs we respect you also
Thanks!
This place is infested. Stay away!!