Do buddhists entertain the idea they mght be delusional abou
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Originally posted by twentythree:
Why do we need scientific evidence or explanation for everything to prove that it exists? Can scientists explain the soul and mind that exist in all living things? If there is no evidence or not enough evidence to prove that certain things exist, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
You have to prove that the soul exists first.
As for the mind on the other hand, all the evidence points to the fact that the mind is a function of the brain.
If you take certain drugs, you can alter your mind. What does that tell you? The drugs affect the brain, the brain affects the mind.
If "there is no evidence or not enough evidence to prove that certain things exist" then you assume that it does not exists because it also means that it (the thing that does not exist) will have no effect on you or anything around you.
If it affects you, that is proof it exists. Your believe in the non existing thing might have effects on you but that only proves that your belief exists, not the non existing thing.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
If you believe in buddhist doctrine of karma, you really think you can escape the consequences selling delusions to other people even if you strongly believe in the delusions you are selling?
nice question!!! -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
If you believe in buddhist doctrine of karma, you really think you can escape the consequences selling delusions to other people even if you strongly believe in the delusions you are selling?
I agree.Though, in Buddhist teachings, same as in the bibles. The teachings of Buddhism should be conducted in classes, with friendly debates instead of shoving ideas into people's throat.
Too many times, be it Christians, Buddhist or Islamic practioner, been encountering zealots or some fanatics sellingthe delusions to other people.
But as practising Christians, Buddhist or Islamic practioner. One need the discipline to find his/her/its own path to acknowledge the peace, love and calm with the teachings.
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Originally posted by viciouskitty74:
I am too shallow, so no need to take my words seriously.
Yes. I think some Buddhists entertains the idea that their superstitious ways and rules is the correct way of buddhism.
But most of us have to cling to a certain routine or a certain aspect of buddhism (the buddhism they think is true, real or the correct way), since we all are not maybe as enlightened as Buddha.
And yes.....I think most of us is delusional. Because in the eyes of people who are skeptical.
I think all of us is delusional to certain aspect. And it will take Buddhha or God's power of the will to be englightened and 'saved' as they are, which is obvious that us mortal men here discussing this topic, have not achieved.
I believe in honour, self discipline and giving oneself. Respect for those who give theirs....be it for life, meat or whatever reason.
Without those disciplines..... we do not respect the world that God, Buddha is hoping to achieve for us.
That is because you have not lived the life of greater REALITY with less delusions and baseless beliefs.
That is why you cannot appreciate the beauty of living life in greater REALITY.
I have tried both ways and I find that the REAL way is better than the delusional way.
The christians and the buddhists (and members of other faiths) make many fantastic claims and preach love and compassion. Love and compassion is well and good.
But it is the REAL way, without the fantastic claims that solves REAL problems in this world.
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you need to understand in the context that all the major religions of the world were at least 1000-2000 years plus ancient and primitive religions. the society then were not advanced and science and technology were rudimentary and basic.
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Why don't you set up your own forum, where you can promote and explain your REAL way, instead of antagonising other people? Of all the people that you should choose to kachow, you had to pick the Buddhism forum. What did Buddhists do to you to deserve this?
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Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
Why don't you set up your own forum, where you can promote and explain your REAL way, instead of antagonising other people? Of all the people that you should choose to kachow, you had to pick the Buddhism forum. What did Buddhists do to you to deserve this?
see:
Why I "kachow" religious people?
Religious hatred simmers in terror suspect's homeland
December 31, 2009 -- Updated 2041 GMT (0441 HKT) -
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/12/30/Nigeria.violence/
"Nigeria has become a battleground state for Christians and Muslims around the world who see themselves involved in a numbers game," says Griswold, author of "The Tenth Parallel," an upcoming book that explores the tension between Christians and Muslims just north of the equator in Africa and Asia.
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And how are Buddhists involved in those conflicts? Do you see Buddhists proselytising to other people or imposing their teachings and way of life?
Why don't and set up your own forum, and give other people a chance to kachow you on your own platform?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/12/30/Nigeria.violence/
"Nigeria has become a battleground state for Christians and Muslims around the world who see themselves involved in a numbers game," says Griswold, author of "The Tenth Parallel," an upcoming book that explores the tension between Christians and Muslims just north of the equator in Africa and Asia.
thats human nature for you, sects pitting against another sects, family against family, even siblings pitted against one another, sons against the fathers.
so whats new even if it is using the name of religion in this instance? survival of the fittest, where the weakest get eliminated.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Exactly what the Christians tell you. Believe and accept Jesus and you will know that it is true. Why don't you? Why are you a Buddhist?
The human mind is delusional in nature. You need to verify and validate your assumptions.
How do you know that it is the medicine that cured you and not your body naturally cured itself?
Therefore, you need to read up on the research done on the medicine. Therefore you need objective verification and evidence of your beliefs.
Although I'm technically a Buddhist (gone through the 3 refuges ceremony), I still ask questions like the above, both towards myself and others. I have no clear and irrefutable answers to offer to any fellow human asking similar questions. I can only share my thoughts and feelings from periodic self-reflections, with anyone who are sincere and open-minded about listening to such kind of sharing.
So far only what the Kalama Sutta has taught is able to help me to move on with the clear sense of direction and understanding that anything we hear or see, we should take them as reference sources, never definitive. To remind myself constantly to develop a discerning, not discriminating mind to investigate and understand as thoroughly as possible, any concept or truths within us and around us.
I treat the guidelines recorded in the Kalama Sutta as sayings by a wise human; which means whether anyone accords the title of Buddha or the label of sutta to those sayings is quite immaterial to me.
And from the above replies so far, it seems probably you have realised something. Only you can convince and understand for yourself what is real and what is delusional in the ways in which some or maybe most people practise or understand Buddhist teachings.
Keep on investigating and analysing with an open mind and heart. At the same time, reflect on the feelings of frustration caused to yourself and to others (as observed from the replies), knowingly or not, that comes in from asking such questions to the Buddhist community at large.
I now refrain from asking such questions online or towards fellow Buddhists. They will merely answer you with answers that point to one word 'Practice'. Is chanting or meditation 'practice'? One really has to so-called trial and error, be willing to conduct countless life-long experiments, observations on various known approaches and think about new ones by using established viewpoints and concepts as good reference materials, with utmost perseverance and open-mindedness.
The historical Buddha is no longer with us. It is widely recognised as an irrefutable fact that only a sammasamBuddha (our historial Buddha, Sakyamuni Buddha) can teach difficult to grasp concepts or any kind of universal truth perfectly, by taking into full account the subtle and innate intellectual and spiritual capacities of each living being, and their karmic affinities with certain Dharma teachings - cultivated or have not yet been cultivated throughout countless rebirths.
Not even an Arahant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahant_%28Buddhism%29) can be considered a perfect teacher.
So take heart in the above. You are not alone in asking such questions. People like us can only continue to search for our own answers, with guidelines from the Kalama Sutta as our lamp, our light.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Although I'm technically a Buddhist (gone through the 3 refuges ceremony), I still ask questions like the above, both towards myself and others.
So far only what the Kalama Sutta has taught satisfies my doubts completely. To develop a discerning, not discriminating mind to investigate and understand as thoroughly as possible, any concept or truths within us and around us.
I treat the guidelines recorded in the Kalama Sutta as sayings by a wise human; which means whether anyone accords the title of Buddha or the label of sutta to those sayings is quite immaterial to me.
...and that is the only way to arrive closer at the truth... and the reward is, end of suffering the delusional suffers from....
The thing I like about buddhism is that you, as a buddhist can make statements like that and do not expect to be "excommunicated"
Unfortunately for you, as a practicing buddhist, you are bombarded regularly with doctrine and you live a certain way of life. You naturally have no first hand knowledge (and you might even not want first hand knowledge) of many other aspects of life.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
The thing I like about buddhism is that you, as a buddhist can make statements like that and do not expect to be "excommunicated"
Unfortunately for you, as a practicing buddhist, you are bombarded regularly with doctrine and you live a certain way of life. You naturally have no first hand knowledge (and you might even not want first hand knowledge) of many other aspects of life.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the above.
Fortunately or unfortunately, it is also recorded in sutras and also spread by fellow Buddhists that certain questions like the above may be construed as slander, libel, or disrespectul questioning. The karmic consequences of slander, libel or disrespectful questioning are very severe.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
You cannot substantiate but you believe chanting benefits the dead anyway? Is that what you are trying to say in this post?
Please read slowly, if you do not understand, read again slowly.
Prove to me that chanting DOES NOT benefit the dead! Until you do, read very slowly, until can finish reading the whole answer.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
What you claim here of course applies to catholics and hindus doing meditation and muslims praying five times a day or people simply taking a walk to calm themselves down..... nothing to suggest that chanting is anything more than one of the methods that exists and not exclusive to buddhism.
Shamatha meditation (one pointedness, concentration practices) exists in other religions. They are important but only Buddhism teaches insight meditation.
Chapter 3
What Meditation Is
Meditation is a word, and words are used in different ways by different speakers. This may seem like a trivial point, but it is not. It is quite important to distinguish exactly what a particular speaker means by the words he uses. Every culture on earth, for example, has produced some sort of mental practice which might be termed meditation. It all depends on how loose a definition you give to that word. Everybody does it, from Africans to Eskimos. The techniques are enormously varied, and we will make no attempt to survey them. There are other books for that. For the purpose of this volume, we will restrict our discussion to those practices best known to Western audiences and most likely associated with the term meditation.
Within the Judeo-Christian tradition we find two overlapping practices called prayer and contemplation. Prayer is a direct address to some spiritual entity. Contemplation in a prolonged period of conscious thought about some specific topic, usually a religious ideal or scriptural passage. From the standpoint of mental culture, both of these activities are exercises in concentration. The normal deluge of conscious thought is restricted, and the mind is brought to one conscious area of operation. The results are those you find in any concentrative practice: deep calm, a physiological slowing of the metabolism and a sense of peace and well-being.
Out of the Hindu tradition comes Yogic meditation, which is also purely concentrative. The traditional basic exercises consist of focusing the mind on a single object a stone, a candle flame, a syllable or whatever, and not allowing it to wander. Having acquired the basic skill, the Yogi proceeds to expand his practice by taking on more complex objects of meditation chants, colorful religious images, energy channels in the body and so forth. Still, no matter how complex the object of meditation, the meditation itself remains purely an exercise in concentration.
Within the Buddhist tradition, concentration is also highly valued. But a new element is added and more highly stressed. That element is awareness. All Buddhist meditation aims at the development of awareness, using concentration as a tool. The Buddhist tradition is very wide, however, and there are several diverse routes to this goal. Zen meditation uses two separate tacks. The first is the direct plunge into awareness by sheer force of will. You sit down and you just sit, meaning that you toss out of your mind everything except pure awareness of sitting. This sounds very simple. It is not. A brief trial will demonstrate just how difficult it really is. The second Zen approach used in the Rinzai school is that of tricking the mind out of conscious thought and into pure awareness. This is done by giving the student an unsolvable riddle which he must solve anyway, and by placing him in a horrendous training situation. Since he cannot flee from the pain of the situation, he must flee into a pure experience of the moment. There is nowhere else to go. Zen is tough. It is effective for many people, but it is really tough.
Another stratagem, Tantric Buddhism, is nearly the reverse. Conscious thought, at least the way we usually do it, is the manifestation of ego, the you that you usually think that you are. Conscious thought is tightly connected with self-concept. The self-concept or ego is nothing more than a set of reactions and mental images which are artificially pasted to the flowing process of pure awareness. Tantra seeks to obtain pure awareness by destroying this ego image. This is accomplished by a process of visualization. The student is given a particular religious image to meditate upon, for example, one of the deities from the Tantric pantheon. He does this in so thorough a fashion that he becomes that entity. He takes off his own identity and puts on another. This takes a while, as you might imagine, but it works. During the process, he is able to watch the way that the ego is constructed and put in place. He comes to recognize the arbitrary nature of all egos, including his own, and he escapes from bondage to the ego. He is left in a state where he may have an ego if he so chooses, either his own or whichever other he might wish, or he can do without one. Result: pure awareness. Tantra is not exactly a game of patty cake either.
Vipassana is the oldest of Buddhist meditation practices. The method comes directly from the Sitipatthana Sutta, a discourse attributed to Buddha himself. Vipassana is a direct and gradual cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. It proceeds piece by piece over a period of years. The student's attention is carefully directed to an intense examination of certain aspects of his own existence. The meditator is trained to notice more and more of his own flowing life experience. Vipassana is a gentle technique. But it also is very , very thorough. It is an ancient and codified system of sensitivity training, a set of exercises dedicated to becoming more and more receptive to your own life experience. It is attentive listening, total seeing and careful testing. We learn to smell acutely, to touch fully and really pay attention to what we feel. We learn to listen to our own thoughts without being caught up in them.
The object of Vipassana practice is to learn to pay attention. We think we are doing this already, but that is an illusion. It comes from the fact that we are paying so little attention to the ongoing surge of our own life experiences that we might just as well be asleep. We are simply not paying enough attention to notice that we are not paying attention. It is another Catch-22.Continue in: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe1-4.html
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Originally posted by twentythree:
Why do we need scientific evidence or explanation for everything to prove that it exists? Can scientists explain the soul and mind that exist in all living things? If there is no evidence or not enough evidence to prove that certain things exist, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
Actually, Buddhism does not teach that there is a soul, but that there are Streams of Consciousness. There is a huge difference. Realising Anatta or the truth of no-self is what liberates.
Please see this article for an introduction to the core teachings of Buddhism, http://www.kktanhp.com/Theravada%20Buddhism.htm
Excerpt:
Anatta Doctrine
This is the most unique feature of Buddhism. It is not found in any other religion in the world. Buddha formulated this doctrine and gave ample reasons to support it. In all the other religions there exists a Soul or a Self or Atman in humans. This is a permanent, unchanging, everlasting essence or entity in man. In some religions, this soul will end up in heaven or hell eternally after death. In Hinduism the Atman after many life times of purification will finally unite with God or Brahman. This Self or soul is the thinker of thoughts, feeler of sensations and receiver of rewards and punishments. Buddhism reckons that this soul is the cause of all evils and misdeeds because of the selfishness of ‘me’ and ‘mine’. Selfishness leads to all other defilements like hatred, ill will, conceit and pride.
Buddha explained that each individual is composed of five constituents: body, feeling, perception, mental factors (habitual tendencies) and consciousness. At birth these five constituents propel the karmic forces to form an individual in this life. At death, the five constituents break up to leave the forces in the spirit world during which no individual is in existence. In a subsequent birth these five separate constituents will reform another individual according to the karma accrued by that individual in his past life. So the theory goes: in life these five constituents are inconstant, forever changing and are impermanent. When impermanent the individual composing of the five constituents is consistently suffering. These five constituents being ever changing have no organizing principle or soul or permanent essence apart from the constituents. This is the rationale of the anatta doctrine.
Buddha said that man psychologically invented the idea of God and Soul for self-protection and self-preservation. God is supposed to protect man for safety and security. For self-preservation, man conceives of a Soul or Atman, which will live eternally. All other religions cling on to these entities of God and Soul due to selfish motives. Buddha argued that these ideas are false and deep-rooted conjured in the minds of the Brahmins. After his enlightenment he postulated two theories to counter the concept of God and Atman. These are the Five Aggregates and the Conditioned Genesis.
Man is composed of the Five Aggregates, which are 1) the body, 2) feelings, 3) perception 4) mental tendencies and 5) consciousness. Try as hard as one may, one can find no essence or a Self or an Atman in any of these constituents. He also emphasized that there is no other essence or substance outside these five constituents. These conditioned and ever changing constituents are subjected to suffering---dukkha.
The Conditioned Genesis (Paticca-samuppada) is relative and interdependent.
The principle of this doctrine is given in these four lines:
When this is, that is
This arising, that arises
When this is not, that is not
This ceasing, that ceases.
This doctrine is encapsulated by twelve links:
1. Through ignorance are conditioned volitional actions or kamma-formations.
2. Through volitional actions is conditioned consciousness.
3. Through consciousness are conditioned mental and physical phenomena.
4. Through mental and physical and mental phenomena are conditioned six faculties.
5. Through the six faculties is conditioned (sensorial and mental) contact.
6. Through (sensorial and mental) contact is conditioned sensation.
7. Through sensation is conditioned desire.
8. Through desire is conditioned clinging.
9. Through clinging is conditioned the process of becoming.
10. Through the process of becoming is conditioned birth.
11. Through birth are conditioned dukkha, illness, old age, lamentation, pain and
12. Decay and Death.
Looking at the above 12 links, the crucial point is to stop at the point where contact gives rise to sensation or feeling. Even if sensation or feelings have arisen, one should prevent the feelings from concocting craving and clinging. It is at this point of craving that kamma is generated. So without craving, clinging and being, no dukkha is generated as no kamma has been earned.
One can see that all the factors in this circle of links of the Conditioned Genesis (Dependent Origination) are conditioned and conditioning. They are relative, interdependent and interconnected. Nothing is independent and absolute and there is no first cause. If the five aggregates and all the other things are conditioned and interdependent, there should also be no free will. With this Conditioned Genesis together with the analysis of the Five Aggregates, one finds that there is also no immortal abiding essence in man. Whether this essence is called Atman or soul it does not matter. This is the Buddhist doctrine of Anatta, No-Soul or No-Self. In conventional truth or daily conversation we use the word “I” merely to signify an individual separate from other individuals. However in ultimate truth there is no essence or abiding substance behind this individual. ‘A person should be mentioned as existing only in designation (conventionally an individual), but not in reality.’
The verses 277, 278, 279 of chapter XX of The Dhammapada say:
277 All created things are transitory;
Those who realize this are freed from suffering.
This is the path that leads to wisdom.
278 All created things are involved in sorrow;
Those who realize this are freed from suffering.
This is the path that leads to pure wisdom.
279 All states are without self;
Those who realize this are freed from suffering.
This is the path that leads to pure wisdom.
Verses 277 and 278 say that all created things are impermanent and therefore involved in dukkha, sorrow and suffering. But verse 279 emphasized that ‘All states’ are without self (anatta). The word used to denote ‘all states’ is dhamma. The word dhamma includes both conditioned and unconditioned things and states, the Absolute and Nibbana. That means there is no Self or Atman in the Five Aggregates or outside the Five Aggregates. Furthermore, there is also no Self or Atman in the unconditioned --- the Absolute and Nibbana.
For those who take the self as consciousness, Buddha replied that it is better to take the body as self, because the body is more solid. Also the mind or consciousness changes much faster than the body. The vague feeling of ‘I Am’ gives the false impression that there is a self in us. To cure this spiritual disease is to see objectively that the Five Aggregates work interdependently in a constant flux within the law of cause and effect, and that there is no eternal, unchanging, and permanent essence in all conditioned and unconditioned things and states.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
agogoboy is a troll who likes to anal kids and guys alike
Now I;m feeding the troll.
Why do you like to bounce your head off prayer mat and stick your ass in the air to turn me on?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Now I;m feeding the troll.
Why do you like to bounce your head off prayer mat and stick your ass in the air to turn me on?
remember this troll, repeat, do not feed to this troll. warning is given. holiday is ending soon.
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Originally posted by Weychin:
Good morning googoomuck and a happy new year!
Are you a good christian? Is your conduct and way of talking, comes from being a christian?
Do you know what the meaning of charity(agape) in christianity? As a christian, what does it mean to you? And have you also forgotten to turn the other cheek?
And also, you vocabulary leaves much to be desired!
Do you imply that these monkeys can come to EH to monkey around but not the other way round?
Don't assume. You will know that I'm a Christian when I tell you so.
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christian taliban is running amock here.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Now I;m feeding the troll.
Why do you like to bounce your head off prayer mat and stick your ass in the air to turn me on?
I think everyone can see from his post who is the real troll
Not only do these ppl like to bash other religions, they also unbashfully go to the respective forums to bash
Sigh
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
christian taliban is running amock here.
ahh well, this is totally expected
it only reaffirm what we know about their lot
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
remember this troll, repeat, do not feed to this troll. warning is given. holiday is ending soon.
It's no use to warn others about trolling because you are a good example of a troll.
You and Laurie got together here to add fuel to fire to turn this into another Guantanamo...hehehe
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
It's no use to warn others about trolling because you are a good example of a troll.
You and Laurie got together here to add fuel to fire to turn this into another Guantanamo...hehehe
christian taliban's very own guantanamo
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Originally posted by laurence82:
I think everyone can see from his post who is the real troll
Not only do these ppl like to bash other religions, they also unbashfully go to the respective forums to bash
Sigh
Haiz.....you did not contribute anything good at all in this forum so far. What are you calling yourself? A bigger troll?