Originally posted by Spnw07:gravity still works even if you are an actor, right?. So shouldn't Karma be present even in a dream? Karma is not created, influenced or limited by human thoughts and feelings, time and space right?
What is a dream? What defines a dream? We can be talking about dreams we have while we are asleep or the abstract sense of the word.
So if I killed someone, do I tell myself I'm merely dreaming and I can 'wake up' without having to bear any negative consequences?
I feel the fear of having killed someone, I also feel the excitement. So do I tell myself that the feelings of fear and excitement aren't 'real' as I further remind myself I'm merely having a dream of feeling fearful and excited after killing someone in a dream?
i'll just take the definition of a dream as in our dreaming in normal sleep. during the dreaming, our experience tells us that the dream "I" believes 100% in "my" own dream existence and the environment in the dream. the dream "I" behave as if "I" am living a normal life doing whatever activities that "I'm" supposed to do depending on the dream content. the dream "I" do not question a single bit about whether that experience itself is a dream or real. only upon waking up and in retrospect of reviewing the dream, is it possible to realize that the dream "I" is not really existent in waking moments, but yet not non-existent either since it is experienced as 100% real during the dream. spiritual liberation may be somewhat like that kind of realization, but obviously not exactly the same. if you don't understand what i'm blabbering about its ok, coz its just my own conceptual interpretation. may be total gibberish for someone else.
karma is a profoundly big topic, i'll leave it to the more learned ones to explain it more completely. but my humble opinion is that one aspect of karma is in its manifestation of our instinctive tendency or propensity. so yes, the dream itself is the manifestation of our karmic propensity. usually, how you behave in your dream (as in your character traits, emotions, instincts..etc) would not be very different from your behavior in real life. but since dreaming happens only in our mind consciousness, with all our physical senses(eyes, ear, nose, tongue, body) in dormant during sleep, law of physics obviously works different in our dream (able to fly, no sense of concreteness.. etc).
if "I" kill someone, obviously "I" have to bear all karmic consequences. from buddhist liberation perspective, "I" cannot wake up from the dream because "I" created the dream. "I" cannot achieve enlightenment because "I" is the source of all sufferings. the karmic mechanism fulfills the wishes of "I" by creating this human existence and all those baggages that comes with it.
reading up on the following teachings will help you a long way to better appreciate buddhist teachings and philosophy.
The 3 Universal Characteristics - http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud13.htm
Dependent Arising - http://www.dharmanet.org/BBodhiDependent.htm
Originally posted by Spnw07:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Can you give me real-life examples, as current as possible, on "misdirected compassion"?
If we were to follow the above guideline, some would learn something different. Some kill people and get away with it by doing things to cover up or give a twisted interpretation of whatever evidence unearthed by the authorities.
The first time I kill, I get away with it. The second time too. When I do get caught, the most is just decades of jail, death or life imprisonment. What consequences do I need to fear for myself or consider for everyone?
How do we know when we have become obsessive in the above practice to examine the consequences of our actions?
Any kind of crime is misdirected compassion. Finding happiness by robbing, killing, having affairs, using drugs, all kinds of stuff.
There is no need to go into specifics of the karmic cause and effect, except to know what is right and wrong and avoid doing unwholesome things that could harm ourselves and others, being aware that there is wholesome and unwholesome karmic consequences as a result.
Originally posted by Spnw07:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If Nirvana cannot be characterised, how do we know it is a reality? Wouldn't samsara be the more real reality? What do you mean by samsara being a relative world? The above is quite deep for me.
Just realised you had more questions in the 'Show' section which I didn't see earlier.
Samsara means the relative world of experience. Nirvana isn't something you experience separate from yourself, therefore it is the opposite of a dualistic experience which is to split up our experience into a 'me' experiencing a world made up of a collection of objects interacting in time and space. In non-dual experience there is just the pure experience of whatever is appearing without separating into a perceiver and perceived, subject and object. You do not objectivize what you experienced.
As for Madhyamika, the reason why say Nirvana cannot be charactized is because all things are empty. Madhyamika teachings emphasize on emptiness. Everything is already empty without characteristic. (see Heart Sutra) And Nirvana is the realisation of this.
For example, if we were to observe a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front us, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an inherent attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere appearances without inherent/objective existence.
Originally posted by Spnw07:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The tough part is in knowing clearing when to accept that one's bad karma is really strong. For some, paralysis within 1-2 weeks can be considered strong bad karma. But if one gets cured like your Taiwanese teachr, then you would think you might be foolish for thinking it is strong bad karma.
So the paradox or irony (correct my vocaubulary if you like) is, if it's really bad, you can't avoid suffering. And you can never know whether this unavoidable certain amount of suffering is actually the original, full amount of suffering that ripens for your bad karma.
So you can console yourself either foolishly that my karma has been reduced, but without insight knowledge of the actual, full impact of your bad karma, how do you compare and know whether your effects and duration of your strong bad karma has been reduced?
Only the Buddha and his Arhat disciples can make an accurate and non-biased comparison as to the extent of their suffering for any ripened or soon-to-ripen strong bad karma.
Then it is quite sad that this sutta is not widely published and distributed enough to beginner Buddhists through temples or affliliated organisations. Since this sutta is so precise, detailed and clearly beneficial even within short time span, then more talks should be held not only to promote awareness, but to clear doubts and help plant seeds of motivation for serious practice among Buddhists. I mean such a good sutta should not only be confined to meditation classes in temples or any Buddhist organisation.
In Buddhism, there is the saying that practitioners can avert bad karma by having bad karmic consequences become only small karmic consequences, and there are many examples in the Buddhist scriptures. They are able to dissolve the karma easily. For example he often gets sick or goes to the hospital because he is always taking up the karma of his students (and he has thousands of students), and was able to heal many of them even of terminal illnesses. But he will have some effects as a result, though he is able to dissolve them through his practice. However the healing can only take place if the other party is also sincerely practicing the dharma. Otherwise he will not help them.
As for Mahasatipatthana Sutta, The Satipaá¹á¹hÄ�na Sutta[1] (Sanskrit: Smá¹›tyupasthÄ�na SÅ«tra) and the MahÄ�satipaá¹á¹hÄ�na Sutta[2] are two of the most popular discourses in the Pali Canon, embraced by both Theravada and Mahayana practitioners (see, for example, Nhat Hanh, 2005). (These two discourses are identical except that the latter includes extended exposition regarding mindfulness of the Four Noble Truths).
Originally posted by Jamber:i'll just take the definition of a dream as in our dreaming in normal sleep. during the dreaming, our experience tells us that the dream "I" believes 100% in "my" own dream existence and the environment in the dream. the dream "I" behave as if "I" am living a normal life doing whatever activities that "I'm" supposed to do depending on the dream content. the dream "I" do not question a single bit about whether that experience itself is a dream or real. only upon waking up and in retrospect of reviewing the dream, is it possible to realize that the dream "I" is not really existent in waking moments, but yet not non-existent either since it is experienced as 100% real during the dream. spiritual liberation may be somewhat like that kind of realization, but obviously not exactly the same. if you don't understand what i'm blabbering about its ok, coz its just my own conceptual interpretation. may be total gibberish for someone else.
karma is a profoundly big topic, i'll leave it to the more learned ones to explain it more completely. but my humble opinion is that one aspect of karma is in its manifestation of our instinctive tendency or propensity. so yes, the dream itself is the manifestation of our karmic propensity. usually, how you behave in your dream (as in your character traits, emotions, instincts..etc) would not be very different from your behavior in real life. but since dreaming happens only in our mind consciousness, with all our physical senses(eyes, ear, nose, tongue, body) in dormant during sleep, law of physics obviously works different in our dream (able to fly, no sense of concreteness.. etc).
if "I" kill someone, obviously "I" have to bear all karmic consequences. from buddhist liberation perspective, "I" cannot wake up from the dream because "I" created the dream. "I" cannot achieve enlightenment because "I" is the source of all sufferings. the karmic mechanism fulfills the wishes of "I" by creating this human existence and all those baggages that comes with it.
reading up on the following teachings will help you a long way to better appreciate buddhist teachings and philosophy.
The 3 Universal Characteristics - http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud13.htm
Dependent Arising - http://www.dharmanet.org/BBodhiDependent.htm
I read about those before. It's only that I find it difficult to understand. For dreams wise, I generally behave in a gentle way to people in my dreams, but in real life, i'm more aloof, more cold..
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In Buddhism, there is the saying that practitioners can avert bad karma by having bad karmic consequences become only small karmic consequences, and there are many examples in the Buddhist scriptures. They are able to dissolve the karma easily. For example he often gets sick or goes to the hospital because he is always taking up the karma of his students (and he has thousands of students), and was able to heal many of them even of terminal illnesses. But he will have some effects as a result, though he is able to dissolve them through his practice. However the healing can only take place if the other party is also sincerely practicing the dharma. Otherwise he will not help them.
As for Mahasatipatthana Sutta, The Satipaá¹á¹hÄ�na Sutta[1] (Sanskrit: Smá¹›tyupasthÄ�na SÅ«tra) and the MahÄ�satipaá¹á¹hÄ�na Sutta[2] are two of the most popular discourses in the Pali Canon, embraced by both Theravada and Mahayana practitioners (see, for example, Nhat Hanh, 2005). (These two discourses are identical except that the latter includes extended exposition regarding mindfulness of the Four Noble Truths).
What is heavy karma converted to less heavy can be relative and subjective for each and every individual. For a singer, losing her voice is heavy karma. But unless you have insight knowledge of her past lives and the original severity of her ripening or ripened karma, you wouldn't know whether losing her voice is her original heavy karma unchanged, or otherwise.
Furthermore we might have done many things in our countless past lives and of course present ones as well that might have heavy karma, so there's no guarantee that any good effort we do will so conveniently be directed to eliminate every heavy karma from every single bad deed or thought we had committed or had...
Btw, following the logic of your Master's case, then the Buddha should be recorded as being sick even more often, since he should be taking on the karma of countless beings who are serious practitioners...?
Originally posted by Spnw07:What is heavy karma converted to less heavy can be relative and subjective for each and every individual. For a singer, losing her voice is heavy karma. But unless you have insight knowledge of her past lives and the original severity of her ripening or ripened karma, you wouldn't know whether losing her voice is her original heavy karma unchanged, or otherwise.
Furthermore we might have done many things in our countless past lives and of course present ones as well that might have heavy karma, so there's no guarantee that any good effort we do will so conveniently be directed to eliminate every heavy karma from every single bad deed or thought we had committed or had...
Btw, following the logic of your Master's case, then the Buddha should be recorded as being sick even more often, since he should be taking on the karma of countless beings who are serious practitioners...?
You will not be able to eliminate all bad karma, only lighten them. Even the Buddha experience the effects of his bad karma though to a lesser extent.
As for healing, even though Buddha certainly has the powers to heal people, he may have chosen not to use them. These kind of healing is not exactly rare, I heard other masters do it. BTW my Taiwanese teacher is not my master. My master passed away over a decade ago. My Taiwanese teacher is his dharma successor. Both of them healed many people before including terminal illness people.
BTW, Master Sheng Yen (who also happens to be my Master's dharma brother) said the reason Jesus had to die such a terrible death is precisely because he was using his powers to heal people (as shown in many of his stories). My Taiwanese teacher was well aware of the possibility that his death will not be so good because of his taking up the bad karma of others, but he always said, I will only die once in this life, so whatever happens that's fine.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Any kind of crime is misdirected compassion. Finding happiness by robbing, killing, having affairs, using drugs, all kinds of stuff.
There is no need to go into specifics of the karmic cause and effect, except to know what is right and wrong and avoid doing unwholesome things that could harm ourselves and others, being aware that there is wholesome and unwholesome karmic consequences as a result.
There are things which are not necessarily criminal, but still cause harm to others. Having affairs is not a crime by law, but recognised by law to be a good legal basis for divorce.
What is wholesome and unwholesome in various real-life scenarios is still vague to me, that is why I'm going into specifics.
I'm asking about examples of misdirected compassion which are not necessarily criminal in nature, and or may look trivial and insignificant to most...
And furthermore, the examples you gave suggest more strongly the nature of the doer being totally uncompassionate at all, rather than misdirected compassion.
For example, forcing people to do things when they don't want to or can't do at the moment, by constantly harping, suggesting in various ways, on the serious cumulative effects of their karma if they don't change...
That to me is misdirected compassion.
Originally posted by Spnw07:
There are things which are not necessarily criminal, but still cause harm to others. Having affairs is not a crime by law, but recognised by law to be a good legal basis for divorce.What is wholesome and unwholesome in various real-life scenarios is still vague to me, that is why I'm going into specifics.
I'm asking about examples of misdirected compassion which are not necessarily criminal in nature, and or may look trivial and insignificant to most...
And furthermore, the examples you gave suggest more strongly the nature of the doer being totally uncompassionate at all, rather than misdirected compassion.
For example, forcing people to do things when they don't want to or can't do at the moment, by constantly harping, suggesting in various ways, on the serious cumulative effects of their karma if they don't change...
That to me is misdirected compassion.
Any form of greed, hatred, ignorace is misdirected compassion since it is compassion filtered through the egoic separation into subject and object:
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You will not be able to eliminate all bad karma, only lighten them. Even the Buddha experience the effects of his bad karma though to a lesser extent.
As for healing, even though Buddha certainly has the powers to heal people, he may have chosen not to use them. These kind of healing is not exactly rare, I heard other masters do it. BTW my Taiwanese teacher is not my master. My master passed away over a decade ago. My Taiwanese teacher is his dharma successor. Both of them healed many people before including terminal illness people.
BTW, Master Sheng Yen said the reason Jesus had to die such a terrible death is precisely because he was using his powers to heal people (as shown in many of his stories). My Taiwanese teacher was well aware of the possibility that his death will not be so good because of his taking up the bad karma of others, but he always said, I will only die once in this life, so whatever happens that's fine.
It seems you are talking about the Buddha bearing his own karma, but not really about him bearing the karma of others, unlike the example you gave about your Taiwanese teacher.
Again it is not easy for anyone to know whether their karma has been really going on the path of reduction. Can it be that it's not reduction that we experience but merely a natural expiration of bad karma?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Any form of greed, hatred, ignorace is misdirected compassion since it is compassion filtered through the egoic separation into subject and object:
We might conceive of this as compassion having gotten caught in a loop, the loop of the illusion of duality. This is sort of like a dog’s tail chasing itself. Pain and pleasure, suffering and satisfaction always seem to be “over there.” Thus, when pleasant sensations arise, there is a constant, compassionate, deluded attempt to get over there to the other side of the imagined split. This is fundamental attraction. You would think that we would just stop imagining there is a split, but somehow that is not what happens. We keep perpetuating the sense of a split even as we try to bridge it, and so we suffer. When unpleasant sensations arise, there is an attempt to get away from over there, to widen the imagined split. This will never work, because it doesn’t actually exist, but the way we hold our minds as we try to get away from that side is painful. When boring or unpleasant sensations arise, there is the attempt to tune out all together and forget the whole thing, to try to pretend that the sensations on the other side of the split are not there. This is fundamental ignorance and it perpetuates the process, as it is by ignoring aspects of our sensate reality that the illusion of a split is created in the first place.
I think you missed my point. How can greed, hatred and ignorance be considered as compassion in the first place, only misdirected?
If I'm stabbing someone, how is that compassion misdirected? It's simply cruelty and hatred...
Originally posted by Spnw07:It seems you are talking about the Buddha bearing his own karma, but not really about him bearing the karma of others, unlike the example you gave about your Taiwanese teacher.
Again it is not easy for anyone to know whether their karma has been really going on the path of reduction. Can it be that it's not reduction that we experience but merely a natural expiration of bad karma?
It is very obvious. For example, if you have an uncurable terminal illness and it was suddenly cured, then obviously something miraculous happen. If the doctors say you are paralyzed for life and yet you suddenly heal yourself totally within a short period of time, then certainly something miraculous happened. Etc.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is very obvious. For example, if you have an uncurable terminal illness and it was suddenly cured, then obviously something miraculous happen. If the doctors say you are paralyzed for life and yet you suddenly heal yourself totally within a short period of time, then certainly something miraculous happened. Etc.
That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?
just wanna share some material ive read some time ago that seems to be related to this current discussion.
http://www.buddhanet.net/l3lesson.htm
everything that a person say and do are brought about by the intepretation of all conditions surrounding the person as well as the perception of the conditions with relation to 'me', bringing about a neverending interplay of conditions which are again perceived by the person with relation to 'me'. this creates an ongoing sequence of events which may or may not be linked directly.
the conditions that arises with birth (karma) then sets off a new chain reaction which is interconnected with those conditions that arise from the surroundings. reflecting deeper its just one big vibration thats going on and on.
miracles do happen, and its systematic, never by chance.
of cos dun take it from me, its probably some delusions that im having :D
Any form of greed, hatred, ignorace is misdirected compassion since it is compassion filtered through the egoic separation into subject and object:
reminds me of a quote from dr zimbardo in his book the lucifer effect.
we are less rational than we are adept in rationalizing
Originally posted by Spnw07:I think you missed my point. How can greed, hatred and ignorance be considered as compassion in the first place, only misdirected?
If I'm stabbing someone, how is that compassion misdirected? It's simply cruelty and hatred...
The compassion to end suffering is misdirected when we imagine a split between the subject and the object, in which the object must either be get hold of by the subject or gotten rid of by the subject. This gap between subject and object is what is painful. But somehow the person imagines that to remove the gap one must 'get over there' or 'away from over there', in other words the subject must manipulate the objective pole in order to end suffering. But this dualistic relationship is merely fabricated and is what is causing the suffering in the first place. This is the meaning of the 'three poisons'.
Stabbing someone is also a result of a subject and object split, the compassion is in trying to end the suffering he is experiencing (for example he thinks that the other person is the cause of his suffering), but misdirected because he is creating suffering for himself by imagining there is this subject and object split, and that the subjective pole must manipulate the objective pole.
Originally posted by Spnw07:That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?
Dear spwn07 ,
based on the freewill of discussion
, i feel that you are on the academic side of looking at things happen .I wont see thats correct enough ,because its looking at things without considering the 3 periods of time (past , present ,future )
i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .
Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?
the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .
Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions
Originally posted by Spnw07:That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?
Perhaps, but the good karma comes in the form of meeting someone wise and experienced. Otherwise, absent of an enlightened master who can heal and guide the person on the right path, there is no way diseases such as those can 'miraculously heal'. The practitioner must also sincerely practice the dharma himself, of course.
Originally posted by bohiruci:
Dear spwn07 ,based on the freewill of discussion
, i feel that you are on the academic side of looking at things happen .I wont see thats correct enough ,because its looking at things without considering the 3 periods of time (past , present ,future )
i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .
Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?
the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .
Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions
Fake exact cause =/= true case.
Originally posted by Spnw07:
There are things which are not necessarily criminal, but still cause harm to others. Having affairs is not a crime by law, but recognised by law to be a good legal basis for divorce.What is wholesome and unwholesome in various real-life scenarios is still vague to me, that is why I'm going into specifics.
I'm asking about examples of misdirected compassion which are not necessarily criminal in nature, and or may look trivial and insignificant to most...
And furthermore, the examples you gave suggest more strongly the nature of the doer being totally uncompassionate at all, rather than misdirected compassion.
For example, forcing people to do things when they don't want to or can't do at the moment, by constantly harping, suggesting in various ways, on the serious cumulative effects of their karma if they don't change...
That to me is misdirected compassion.
Misdisdirected compassion, has two components, original intent and course of action:-
Few examples:-
Small boy sees fish in fishtank, see fishfood, says fish is hungry, proceeds to empty the contents into fishtank.
Proponent argues for pro life, good, abortion, bad,kills life. Put up protest, escalates to killings abortion doctor!
The lost generation of Australia, forcible schooling Native Americans, denial to speak native language, customs, forced to learn the "western ways and gods" as they are godless savages. Bad in modern context, acceptable,back then, acceptable, maybe noble.
Democracy and western values(Christianity?) is good, proceeds to send troops to a sovereign country in a"crusade".
Allah, Creator of the world is good,Islam is good, the rest is infidels, immoral, decadent. Proceeds to send suicide bombers, in a"Holy jihad", proceeds to up everybody to bits, being a Muslim is no immunity either!
Everybody starts with the noblest intentions!
So if a person choose to practise compassion, it should from the point of selflessness, in chanting and visualisation practice, one would visualise uponthe breath intake, drawing all the bad karma, with emanation of rays of good karma to all illuminate and liberate all sentients beings.Originally posted by Spnw07:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Compassion arises naturally in regards to appearances? Why? If appearances of suffering are like illusions, then they will also disappear like illusions without our intervention or regardless of how we feel.
Do we bother to save the morning dew that gets evaporated when the sun comes out?
Do we bother to save the zebra we see getting chased by a lion?
Physical and mental pain or discomfort are two separate things? I thought they are inter-connected.
Is having a headache or migraine something physical or mental? There are no specific external body parts involved.
When I'm hungry, I feel weak. Is that physical or mental? Can I wish or will away hunger? When I am having a fever, I feel hot and uncomfortable. When I am diagnosed with kidney failure and undergo daily dialysis (which is freaking uncomfortable), can I wish or will away sickness?
If there is no sufferer apart from suffering, why do Bodhisattvas need to have compassion for beings? There should be NO beings to feel or develop compassion for, isn't it?
If suffering is impermanent, insubstantial, and empty, then is compassion impermanent, insubstantial and empty too?
There a sensation of pain registered by the mind and mental anguish
Also physical pain can be blocked, by the adrenalin rush in times of danger, also a person goes into shock with extreme trauma,eg. broken bones.
A martial artist can block pain using chi, the blood withdraws from peripheral into the core, leaving the skin with a cold clammy sensation. The pain will return later, unfortunately, same with spiritual possessions with mediums and "shen da" spiritual kungfu. Chi can also be to speed up healing.
Illnessis also called dis-ease, manifested as discomfort. The difference is how one react to discomfort, some will moan and groan"I want to die already". We instinctively give words of comfort although it will not cure the ailment, we comfort to make the person feel and deal with the discomfort better.
The physical pain never goes, but mental agitation is lessen.
Ever missed or skipped a meal even though you are hungry, if preoccupied, hunger pangs usually goes away after a while. In an affluent world, we are usually not starving, yes, we feel do hungry, but is usually the overreaction to hunger, the gorging of food. Constant craving is usually symptomatic of something else!
Originally posted by bohiruci:
Dear spwn07 ,based on the freewill of discussion
, i feel that you are on the academic side of looking at things happen .I wont see thats correct enough ,because its looking at things without considering the 3 periods of time (past , present ,future )
i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .
Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?
the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .
Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions
There are some Buddhist concepts that say 3 periods of time are illusions of the deluded mind. And what's academic and non-academic in your view? Please elaborate.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The compassion to end suffering is misdirected when we imagine a split between the subject and the object, in which the object must either be get hold of by the subject or gotten rid of by the subject. This gap between subject and object is what is painful. But somehow the person imagines that to remove the gap one must 'get over there' or 'away from over there', in other words the subject must manipulate the objective pole in order to end suffering. But this dualistic relationship is merely fabricated and is what is causing the suffering in the first place. This is the meaning of the 'three poisons'.
Stabbing someone is also a result of a subject and object split, the compassion is in trying to end the suffering he is experiencing (for example he thinks that the other person is the cause of his suffering), but misdirected because he is creating suffering for himself by imagining there is this subject and object split, and that the subjective pole must manipulate the objective pole.
The explanation you gave for the stabbing example assumes that the doer is suffering. But he could be enjoying the act of killing, without thinking that the other person is the cause of his suffering.
Originally posted by Weychin:Misdisdirected compassion, has two components, original intent and course of action:-
Few examples:-
Small boy sees fish in fishtank, see fishfood, says fish is hungry, proceeds to empty the contents into fishtank.
Proponent argues for pro life, good, abortion, bad,kills life. Put up protest, escalates to killings abortion doctor!
The lost generation of Australia, forcible schooling Native Americans, denial to speak native language, customs, forced to learn the "western ways and gods" as they are godless savages. Bad in modern context, acceptable,back then, acceptable, maybe noble.
Democracy and western values(Christianity?) is good, proceeds to send troops to a sovereign country in a"crusade".
Allah, Creator of the world is good,Islam is good, the rest is infidels, immoral, decadent. Proceeds to send suicide bombers, in a"Holy jihad", proceeds to up everybody to bits, being a Muslim is no immunity either!
Everybody starts with the noblest intentions!
So if a person choose to practise compassion, it should from the point of selflessness, in chanting and visualisation practice, one would visualise uponthe breath intake, drawing all the bad karma, with emanation of rays of good karma to all illuminate and liberate all sentients beings.
I beg to differ that everybody starts with the noblest intentions. But I thank you for giving those examples.
The problem is that everybody would want to think they have started from the point of selflessness, and is therefore practising compassion.
Originally posted by Weychin:There a sensation of pain registered by the mind and mental anguish
Also physical pain can be blocked, by the adrenalin rush in times of danger, also a person goes into shock with extreme trauma,eg. broken bones.
A martial artist can block pain using chi, the blood withdraws from peripheral into the core, leaving the skin with a cold clammy sensation. The pain will return later, unfortunately, same with spiritual possessions with mediums and "shen da" spiritual kungfu. Chi can also be to speed up healing.
Illnessis also called dis-ease, manifested as discomfort. The difference is how one react to discomfort, some will moan and groan"I want to die already". We instinctively give words of comfort although it will not cure the ailment, we comfort to make the person feel and deal with the discomfort better.
The physical pain never goes, but mental agitation is lessen.
Ever missed or skipped a meal even though you are hungry, if preoccupied, hunger pangs usually goes away after a while. In an affluent world, we are usually not starving, yes, we feel do hungry, but is usually the overreaction to hunger, the gorging of food. Constant craving is usually symptomatic of something else!
If we are preoccupied, hunger pangs do usually go away after a while. However how long can we continue to keep ourselves preoccupied without having to feel hungry again?
Example, people who are usually preoccupied will find that after some time, hunger does not trouble them, but in the long term they may develop gastric pains.
So using mental training to suppress hunger or pain isn't practical?