Is there justice in marriage?
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Taking heed from lessons and making plans to protect oneself from future unforeseen circumstances doesn't mean that you can't take the risk.Originally posted by jOhO:thanx for your response, not that it's in point!
in essence, i just wanted to point out to you that sometimes it's not so easy to just say "u cheat one me, ok fine, we're done"...
so let's address what you've said. i fully understand how a woman (like yourself) wouldn't rely on her man fully becos of all these "lessons" learnt. be it fear, practicality or culture, it's a very commonsense way to safeguard urself.
however i'm quite idealistic and it's my view that while u are NOT totally reliant on ur man, you would still do so becos u love him. then again, in this day and age, as u mentioned, there are hardly any women out there that will die without their man. we are all educated, male or female and have pretty much the same opportunities. (within reason, there are still traditional companies that don't usually promote women to top levels becos they believe a woman cannot fully concentrate on her work becos of kids and family - that's another topic let's address that elsewhere)
it is a leap of faith. having already established the fact that women won't need to rely on her man for her financial and physical needs, perhaps it's the emotional reliance that is the essence of love, which you didn't mention, so i won't assume that u believe that even emotionally, women should be self-sufficient.
i bring to ur attention the risk u mentioned of being like the woman in the article (hence the need be able to not to rely on your man fully). and sorry for being concise and perhaps blunt, if you can't take this risk, then dun get married. period. are u anyway?
just being idealistic me.
ok, back to that woman in the article. since you are educated and able to work and support yourself and 4 children, would u still choose to leave the man if you were her?
ahha i dun give up do i? dun mean to corner you, since u seem vocal and definitely can express urself in good english, i thot i might request a response.
feel free to "challenge" me if u wish. lovely discussion so far.
You can never eliminate risk completely, so the next best thing is to manage it.
Marriage is a leap of faith, yes, but you can do well to take the leap with a calculated risk and not blindly plunging in and falling to your death without knowing why.
If the woman is educated and able to work and support herself and her 4 children, why shouldn't she leave the man? Why do you want to confine your whole life to a man who is not faithful to you? You only live your life once, why ruin it?
Sometimes, people are so stuck in their present lifestyle (I'm not even referring to a comfort zone) that they fear to move on. Little do they know that moving on to another lifestyle often brings more joy than before. -
i wonder in what respect was my response "not in point"? perhaps i did not comprehend the full essense of what you're asking?Originally posted by jOhO:thanx for your response, not that it's in point! in essence, i just wanted to point out to you that sometimes it's not so easy to just say "u cheat one me, ok fine, we're done"...
so let's address what you've said. i fully understand how a woman (like yourself) wouldn't rely on her man fully becos of all these "lessons" learnt. be it fear, practicality or culture, it's a very commonsense way to safeguard urself.
however i'm quite idealistic and it's my view that while u are NOT totally reliant on ur man, you would still do so becos u love him. then again, in this day and age, as u mentioned, there are hardly any women out there that will die without their man. we are all educated, male or female and have pretty much the same opportunities. (within reason, there are still traditional companies that don't usually promote women to top levels becos they believe a woman cannot fully concentrate on her work becos of kids and family - that's another topic let's address that elsewhere)
it is a leap of faith. having already established the fact that women won't need to rely on her man for her financial and physical needs, perhaps it's the emotional reliance that is the essence of love, which you didn't mention, so i won't assume that u believe that even emotionally, women should be self-sufficient.
i bring to ur attention the risk u mentioned of being like the woman in the article (hence the need be able to not to rely on your man fully). and sorry for being concise and perhaps blunt, if you can't take this risk, then dun get married. period. are u anyway?
just being idealistic me.
ok, back to that woman in the article. since you are educated and able to work and support yourself and 4 children, would u still choose to leave the man if you were her?
ahha i dun give up do i? dun mean to corner you, since u seem vocal and definitely can express urself in good english, i thot i might request a response.
feel free to "challenge" me if u wish. lovely discussion so far.
i acknowledge the fact that it's not easy for her and also that i fully understand why she had to accept what he did and forgive him despite her misgivings. perhaps you did not read my reply fully before saying what you said?
so yes, if i were to be in her shoe, i might be doing the same thing as she is. or i might not. what i'm saying is that i'm not judging her and her actions as i do not have that right or priviledge to. i do not profess to be self-righteous in this respect.Originally posted by neuros:"much as i do not endorse her reluctant acceptance of the situation, i fully understand why she can do it.
what i AM saying is that as women we should do our best to prevent ourselves from landing in HER shoes. her shoes being totally helpless when the man commits a fault. her shoes being left with little choice but to stay on, albeit with reluctance and perhaps, bitterness. i'm not saying her shoes as being betrayed, and being in possession of an unfaithful basket of a husband - that, afterall is within little of her control.
I'm idealistic too. But love and reliance are not equivocal. if i do not die without my man, it does not mean that i do not love him. in a relationship, we're both part of a partnership, as well as individuals unto ourselves.
I never denied the emotional aspect of love either. perhaps, again, you didn't read my post properly.
precisely because we are unable to safeguard our emotions in a relationship, having taken the "leap of faith" that you mentioned, all the more necessary it is for us to safeguard ourselves physicalyl and emotionally, no?Originally posted by neuros:if we can't protect ourselves from the emotional hurt, at least take care of ourselves on the physical, monetary front.
it is all very well to say when you love someone, you trust him or her. but again, who marries someone without trusting him or her? if we don't trust him/her, why marry? but again and again, we see that trust betrayed.
NOTE: i'm NOT saying don't trust your partner. i'm just saying be careful and leave something for yourself to fall back on.
we all think we're invincible. but we're not.
we can trust the other person and be relatively self-sufficient at the same point too, you know. i don't believe they're mutually exclusive. unless you're saying once i married and love the person i've to take all my money from him, spend every cent or return him every cent that i didn't spend such that i do not keep anything for myself. else that's not love? ridiculous notion, huh?
i'm willing to take the risk of emotional suffering if i really really love the person. if i love him, i probably can't help myself, committing to him spiritually and emotionally, entirely. but what i can help is being left high and dry in the event of any adversity happening. it's already painful enough coping with the feeling and hurt of betrayal - why make it more difficult for yourself by having no choice but to swallow it?
i'm also not saying to definitely not forgive the straying man (though i personally would find it extremely hard), but to forgive him because you love him and treasure the family/relationship is very different from forgiving him because you need the money to feed yourself and your kids. again, i'm not saying that the woman in the article is purely the latter but you cannot deny that there is that element. if given a choice (i.e. she can fully support herself and her kids) AND she still goes back to him, then i'd think their relationship might then be more worth saving and stands a better chance of starting afresh. otherwise, there might always be the resentment and sense of helplessness/bitterness even if she's physically by his side.
and no worries, i'm dun feel cornered. nor am i challenging you. just an exchange of viewpoints.
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omg eric and neuros.. gimme some time to reply.. i need to sit down properly for this.. ahahah at work now keep getting interrupted.
don't worree i've read ur replies, and will respond. -
Impt to protect oneself financially from future unforeseen circumstances at all times.
Marriage is indeed a high risk investment..... but again high risk, high gain i guess!
GOD BLESS ALWAYS! -
sigh...y like tat
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well well.....cos its human dealings with human.....when humans are involved....u just cannot understand y like that......Originally posted by makiko:sigh...y like tat
its too diff to explain y like that.....so don't bother to understand y like that.....
cos its just plainly human....
justice or injustice....u will go insane trying to figure that out. -
If life is unfair, why should marriage be any different?
So this woman chose to stay on to try and improve things, or at least maintain status quo for the sake of her children. It's not a matter of right or wrong. I think she doesn't have many appealing options and this could be one of the most attractive for her children, for now. In the end, children always take priority.
As with the financially dependent, sacrifices must be made so that someone continues to feed and clothe you. She's already resigned to her situation.
However the husband doesn't sound repentent, and there's a risk that mistakes may recur or the marriage may deteriorate.
IMO this woman ought to assert herself and be a b|tch about the husband's affair. Accepting and giving way too easily will result in him taking her for granted. Now that he's already abusive, it's hard to correct bad habits.
Sometimes, life and relationship is all about power and clout.
Personally I'd kick up all kinds of hell if he were to quit a good paying job over a woman. If anyone were to lose out in the work place, I'd insist that it be the secretary. After all the man, considering his age, position and family burden, has more to lose. He has a responsibility to his family and they shouldn't be made to pay for his mistake.
Unfortunately in this story, I suspect the secretary somehow has the husband by the balls, thus he's leaving on last resort Tragic! It's true, never fu(k at the place where you eat !Originally posted by elindra:
TODAYonline, Voices, Friday July 1, 2005
Is there justice in marriage?
By Karen T
There is no justice, but should we talk about justice in a marriage?
Can I leave him? I can't. For the sake of my four young children. We depend on him for a living.
I have to focus on moving forward. To give my children a healthy family life, I have to forgive my unfaithful husband, whether he's worthy of the forgiveness or not; and I have to continue to work on improving our relationship, whether he's worth the effort or not.
I've also been advised not to hate the other woman Â… so I had to remind myself to thank her. Why? She has given me a wake-up call, otherwise, I would still be living in my own dreams for the future.
Now that I know what my husband needs, I have to work on my role as a wife. Hopefully, from now on, we can live happily ever after.[/b] -
Voices // Tuesday, July 5, 2005
IT BOILS DOWN TO BOUNDARIES
Sacrificing all for the kids can be unhealthy
Annie Chua
I refer to the article, "Is there justice in marriage?" (July 1) and would like to offer another perspective to marriage.
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People get married for various reasons and, for a first-world country where people are not fighting for the most basic needs, one would hope that communication, love, respect, sharing and joy fall into the realms of marriage.
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Why do people start a family? One would hope that it would be for more than just procreation. It should be a continuation of a contented couple wanting offspring to enjoy the warmth and love within a family and radiated from a loving couple.
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I see in Singapore, however, an interesting phenomenon. Not only is family life built around the children's schedules, but even grandparents are cast aside in the "busy-ness" of catering to their tuition and multiple extra-curricular activities.
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Is it the failure of the education system — which most children can only keep up with by having extra tuition — or are parents going overboard to ensure that their kids are ahead of the game?
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I have seen the mad driving around of children from one place to another. It is exhausting for the parents and boundaries must be set. Life is full of compromises: Would it not be better to accept that it may mean the kids achieve "B" grades instead of "A" grades?
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The writer has accepted that she has no life and she is totally exhausted by all her child-rearing duties. Aren't children supposed to be a joy to add to a good marriage? When did they become a source of exhaustion?
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In this mad rush around for the children, not only are the parents cast aside, but the grandparents are also relegated to secondary importance.
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What are we teaching our children? Is it that when you grow old, you will be the next generation to be cast aside — for the sake of the children's children?
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Our priorities appear to be misplaced.
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What about making it a priority to keep the family intact? Has the writer ever made herself or her marriage a priority and set boundaries for the children?
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Why is there always at least one child sleeping between them? This family has obviously lost some boundaries as individuals, as a couple and as a family.
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It is wonderful to be self-sacrificing, but one can only love others if one learns to love oneself.
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If you don't love yourself, how do you know how to love your husband and to love your children?
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I agree with the writer that she does not have a marriage. What she has is a man on whom she depends for a living — for both herself and the children. He obviously sees it the same way. He is not important; his needs are not looked after. She argues that she has been working so hard for the family. But is that what her husband expects of her — simply concentrate on the kids and ignore all else — or is that her definition of a good wife and mother?
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When a wife sees the husband as a meal ticket, he will probably see her as just an instrument for mothering his kids. You get as much out of life as you put into it.
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The contented marriages I have witnessed are those where both partners respect each other individually and as a couple. They make time to go out once a week or, if time does not permit, once a month.
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They understand that unless they keep happy, they are putting their family in danger, and the children will suffer in consequence.
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In my humble opinion, it all boils down to boundaries.
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There are individual boundaries; couple boundaries; nucleus family boundaries; and, in Asia, extended family boundaries.
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Singapore is at a very interesting phase because we became a first-world country very quickly.
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So parents of this generation find that their parents' way of child-rearing — which is mostly self-sacrificing in a much poorer economic climate — does not work now. Yet, the Western way of parenting also feels uncomfortable.
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Go to a countryside in a Western nation and you will find the so-called "old-fashioned way" of parenting, which is very much a mixture of the so-called "values" from the East and the West: The values of respect, common courtesy to all and the genuine interest and care for people are all that is needed to make relationships of all levels work.
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This piece was contributed by a Today reader. Do you have a view? Tell us at news@newstoday.com.sg
Sacrificing all for the kids can be unhealthy -
Actually I so agree with this because the woman sometimes put all her energy into the child that she neglects her husband that he starts to stray. Too many stories of this happening where the guy feels 'unwanted' and 'neglected'Originally posted by Qitai:Sacrificing all for the kids can be unhealthy -
kinda sad to read the above .. but yup romances fairytales no longer exist..
sad sad sad...
but that's life -
elindra, I agree with you. I think a wife should always bear in mind that her husband will always be her biggest 'baby'!Originally posted by elindra:Actually I so agree with this because the woman sometimes put all her energy into the child that she neglects her husband that he starts to stray. Too many stories of this happening where the guy feels 'unwanted' and 'neglected' 
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Tell me about itOriginally posted by Rhonda:elindra, I agree with you. I think a wife should always bear in mind that her husband will always be her biggest 'baby'!
Gosh you should see how guys sulk when you don't give them attention.
Wait a minute!! You should have experienced that before 
*puts on an abestos suit to prevent herself from being burnt by the flames the guys might throw at her later* -
hmm.. but are we generalising too much here?
it's starting to sound as tho ALL guys will start to womanise once they are married w kids, and women are cynical about men not being about to control their horniness.
just becos we read abt a few bad cases, doesn't mean that we should lose faith in marriage rite? and there's no reason to yi zhu gan da fan zhen chuan ren to say that all men will cheat... there are a lot of good guys ard u noe? *ahem*
My qn is: Is it that this 'cheating husband, skeptical wife' thingy really becoming more and more prevalent in marriages nowadays? Or isit just a knee-jerk reaction to negative examples of marriages? If so, then what do you think is the cause of this trend? -
Originally posted by Rhonda:elindra, I agree with you. I think a wife should always bear in mind that her husband will always be her biggest 'baby'!
Maybe mine is opp.... She is the one being pampered -
I think with more choices for both men and women, we get more paranoid, more self-centered, less tolerant and look for the Exit sign more easily, as compared to couples in the past.
In addition, in the past couples were expected to work out the marriage themselves and not wash dirty laundry in public. A wife would probably swallow any unhappiness to save face rather than air her grievances. Maybe it's a societal change.
But personally I don't see the point in comparing now and then. Too busy trying to survive the presentOriginally posted by k4korny:My qn is: Is it that this 'cheating husband, skeptical wife' thingy really becoming more and more prevalent in marriages nowadays? Or isit just a knee-jerk reaction to negative examples of marriages? If so, then what do you think is the cause of this trend? -
Well, there is the good husband and cheating wife story as well.Originally posted by k4korny:hmm.. but are we generalising too much here?
it's starting to sound as tho ALL guys will start to womanise once they are married w kids, and women are cynical about men not being about to control their horniness.
just becos we read abt a few bad cases, doesn't mean that we should lose faith in marriage rite? and there's no reason to yi zhu gan da fan zhen chuan ren to say that all men will cheat... there are a lot of good guys ard u noe? *ahem*
My qn is: Is it that this 'cheating husband, skeptical wife' thingy really becoming more and more prevalent in marriages nowadays? Or isit just a knee-jerk reaction to negative examples of marriages? If so, then what do you think is the cause of this trend?
The thing is, it is very easy to divorce these days and people don't really want to put in the effort to work out their problems. I guess when everyone is so buried in their work problems, they just don't want to go home to face more problems.
As usual, running away does not solve anything and only causes the problem to fester and grow. I guess this problem will be more prevalent as there is less negative stigma associated with being divorced. Not to forget, a lot of Singaporeans marry for the wrong reasons - They marry for a house. I think some are not even ready but have to marry but carry on for the flat. Really dumb I think since there is a surplus of houses now.
Also, I guess as one grows older, one gets more cynical
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choco B, I couldn't help but smile as I read that paragraph you wrote. It is true that as we socialise more, we might end up becoming more and more 'fussy'. We start to want someone with, say, 'Lisa's body plus Meagan's face and Cheryl's dimples with Lina's boobs and Isabel's happy-go-lucky nature' or, for the girls, 'Jason's face with Den's body combined with Bernard's intelligence and Leslie's maturity with JF's easy-going nature'.Originally posted by choco B:I think with more choices for both men and women, we get more paranoid, more self-centered, less tolerant and look for the Exit sign more easily, as compared to couples in the past.
We start to be picky as a few of us go around looking for the 'best'. It's not enough that David is a very kind man - he's a tad quirky; and Lucy, well, she's a smart girl but she's plump and not too pretty. Sounds familiar?
And it's true how couples give up more easily now. You never know, if you weather this storm just long enough, you might realise that it's calm waters ahead. Don't sweat the small stuff, I guess. When you decide to be part of a couple, you have to learn to give up control and not place your expectations on the other party and stifle him/her. I guess we can't be rigid either because as we grow older, we'll change and we should give each other the leeway to develop, but be lovingly stern enough to gently rein each other in when anyone becomes wayward.
Cynicism does increase with age, ... and then it become a personal choice to keep it at bay and not poison your entire life.Originally posted by elindra:The thing is, it is very easy to divorce these days and people don't really want to put in the effort to work out their problems. I guess when everyone is so buried in their work problems, they just don't want to go home to face more problems.
Also, I guess as one grows older, one gets more cynical I guess it's a combination of our personal experiences and the tribulations undergone by those around us.
Oddly enough, a lot of my friends ended up with folks whom I thought were 'boring' but I've since learnt that 'boring' guys make the best husbands sometimes. I guess the 'interesting' guys and girls keep you on your toes and some people enjoy that 'donkey chasing after the eternally dangling carrot' kind of feeling but how long can you keep that up? Sooner or later, you'll settle down, things will start to become routine and 'boring' as you start to relax in each other's presence and stop trying hard to keep each other entertained.
I've heard married couples say that the first year after marriage was one of the hardest because that's when the lovey-dovey dating stuff ended and the realities of having to compromise and live with each other's different living habits, good or otherwise, sets in.
I look at happily married couples and I see that over the years, they've not only learnt to compromise but they've learnt to come together to develop a common 'style' or preference. It's really sweet to see - two different individuals coming together to become a single unit.