Hiroshima mark 60th year of bombing
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Estimated 140,000 people are believed to have died in Hiroshima. 80,000 in Nagasaki.
Is it necessary to drop the atomic bombs to force the Japanese to surrender
Or was the Bomb was an announcement to the World on American superiority -
mi condolences
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Remembering Hiroshima
Greenpeace members fly dove-shaped balloons at Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Park on Friday as the environmental group marked 60 years after the nuclear blast here. -- AFP
for more int pics u can see frm middle of tis pg
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=141769&page=13
under " 60 years on: Hiroshima then and now " -
As awful as it sounds, I've never been too upset about the bombings. Hirohito and Suzuki had their chance to save everybody a lot of trouble after Potsdam, but they decided to take the Allies' kindness for their weakness. Tough luck - if anybody was to be blamed, it's them.
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The thing is Hirohito and Suzuki didn't die,
220,000 innocent others who were fathers, mothers, son, daughters, uncles, aunties, nieces, nephews, friends, lovers, grandparents of others did...
each one is a life with stories behind it...
Originally posted by Gedanken:
As awful as it sounds, I've never been too upset about the bombings. Hirohito and Suzuki had their chance to save everybody a lot of trouble after Potsdam, but they decided to take the Allies' kindness for their weakness. Tough luck - if anybody was to be blamed, it's them. -
In times of war, the innocent parties are the ones who suffer most.Originally posted by Gedanken:As awful as it sounds, I've never been too upset about the bombings. Hirohito and Suzuki had their chance to save everybody a lot of trouble after Potsdam, but they decided to take the Allies' kindness for their weakness. Tough luck - if anybody was to be blamed, it's them. -
Originally posted by ilovemyrolex:
WEll, Hirohito & SUzuki got otehrs to pay for their sins.
The thing is Hirohito and Suzuki didn't die,
[b]220,000 innocent others who were fathers, mothers, son, daughters, uncles, aunties, nieces, nephews, friends, lovers, grandparents of others did...
each one is a life with stories behind it...
[/b] -
Originally posted by ilovemyrolex:
True enough, but in all of the major cities, the citizens were preparing for an Allied invasion - even teenage girls were being trained to attack invaders with sharpened bamboo poles. And we're not counting the kamikaze squads being prepared for the invasion.
The thing is Hirohito and Suzuki didn't die,
[b]220,000 innocent others who were fathers, mothers, son, daughters, uncles, aunties, nieces, nephews, friends, lovers, grandparents of others did...
each one is a life with stories behind it...
[/b]
Fact is that they would probably all have died anyway, and taken a whole lot of other lives to boot.
The Potsdam decalration was the last ditch effort by the Allies to avoid dropping the bombs. They tried, and Hirohito and Suzuki forced their hand. -
Well, the Japanese were prepared to fight till the last drop of blood. Capitulation was seen as something disgraceful. Many military officers subsequently committed ritual suicide following the end of the War in Asia.Originally posted by Gedanken:The Potsdam decalration was the last ditch effort by the Allies to avoid dropping the bombs. They tried, and Hirohito and Suzuki forced their hand. -
Well, proponents of the bombings claim that the event actually saved lives. They claim that if Operation Downfall (Allied invasion of Japan) had been unleashed instead, millions of people would have died.
The argument sounds pretty cavalier..... they're saying that a few hundred thousand deaths is better than a few million. The value of the human soul is lost in the maze of numbers.
It's not without plausibility though - if Iwo Jima and Okinawa are any indication of what to expect, Downfall would certainly have been really bloody.
As for me - well, I don't like the bombings. I felt that one bomb ought to have been dropped instead on an uninhabited Japanese island as a show of force. In other words, give them the message that resistance is futile, and demonstrate the destruction that can be brought upon them if they still persisted in it anyway. It might have cowered the Japs into surrender.
Even if Hiroshima was necessary and expendable, Nagasaki was overkill. Bombing Hiroshima was already a massive show of force. Kurt Vonnegut once said that while the Hiroshima bomb saved the lives of his Army friends (who might have been drawn into Downfall), Nagasaki was proof that the United States was capable of senseless cruelty. -
THe events at Nagasaki happened exactly 2 decades before Singapore became independent. Is that the reason why there is little coverage of Nagasaki in the local media?Originally posted by fudgester:Even if Hiroshima was necessary and expendable, Nagasaki was overkill. Bombing Hiroshima was already a massive show of force. Kurt Vonnegut once said that while the Hiroshima bomb saved the lives of his Army friends (who might have been drawn into Downfall), Nagasaki was proof that the United States was capable of senseless cruelty.
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They really have a different degree of National Pride. In their eyes, the allies are going to invade them and rape all their women. They were probably subjected to intensive propaganda. What would you do if you're in their shoes?
It's easy for us to put them into groups (e.g Japanese) and see them as such. But each of us is an individual, each a human being.
In fact, during my German trip, I learnt that most Germans did not know the truth that was happening in concentration camps due to the propaganda efforts of Nazis. And many today still equate the Germans to Nazis. Incredible! -
Technology n information r 2 powerful n crucial tools in war. The expliotation of both is required to oil the process of war.
Fortunately, or contrary, war will almost never come in an organised country. Terrorism will. -
a lot of people thought that japanese surrender. in fact, they never say surrender at all. they used another word, "give up". they only give up in conquering the world, not surrender.Originally posted by kops21:Estimated 140,000 people are believed to have died in Hiroshima. 80,000 in Nagasaki.
Is it necessary to drop the atomic bombs to force the Japanese to surrender
Or was the Bomb was an announcement to the World on American superiority -
The dropping of the atomic bomb was against all the rules of war. Both cities were not legitimate military targets and the killing was indiscriminate..
The choice of the cities was also a political decision. If they have to use a nuclear bomb to stop the war, why not bomb Tokyo right on top of the palace? I find it difficult to forgive the Japanese atrocities in the war as well but I would prefer that they killed the leaders rather than bomb innocent civilians. -
CNA got doucumentary on this tonight if I can remember
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Now, there's an interesting point - the value of a human soul. How would you value the suffering of a Chinese farmer strung up on a post and filleted slowly like a fish, compared to that of a Japanese civilian, in the middle of combat training, being wiped out in a flash? Would you rather that the killing of Japanese have taken place on a more personal level? Keep in mind that among the 120-150,000 troops the Japanese had waiting for the Allies were enslaved Taiwanese and Korean soldiers. At that level, I'd say the Japanese had it good, but let's not go there, eh?Originally posted by fudgester:Well, proponents of the bombings claim that the event actually saved lives. They claim that if Operation Downfall (Allied invasion of Japan) had been unleashed instead, millions of people would have died.
The argument sounds pretty cavalier..... they're saying that a few hundred thousand deaths is better than a few million. The value of the human soul is lost in the maze of numbers.
It's not without plausibility though - if Iwo Jima and Okinawa are any indication of what to expect, Downfall would certainly have been really bloody.
As for me - well, I don't like the bombings. I felt that one bomb ought to have been dropped instead on an uninhabited Japanese island as a show of force. In other words, give them the message that resistance is futile, and demonstrate the destruction that can be brought upon them if they still persisted in it anyway. It might have cowered the Japs into surrender.
Even if Hiroshima was necessary and expendable, Nagasaki was overkill. Bombing Hiroshima was already a massive show of force. Kurt Vonnegut once said that while the Hiroshima bomb saved the lives of his Army friends (who might have been drawn into Downfall), Nagasaki was proof that the United States was capable of senseless cruelty.
The Potsdam Declaration cabled to the Japanese government is outlined as follows:
Points 2 and 3: You saw what happened to Germany, and you know we're playing for keeps. Now that we're done with the Krauts, we're coming for you.
Points 1 and 4: Still, we'll play nice one last time: here's your chance to surrender.
Point 5 (verbatim): "Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them.
There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."
Point 6: The existing leadership in Japan responsible for this war is to be removed.
Points 7 and 8: Until a new local leadership is installed, the Allies will temporarily occupy and administer over Japanese territories. You will retain sovereignty over the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu and Shikoku, so even at this stage you haven't lost the house on your bet.
Points 9 and 11: Your soldiers will be permitted to lay down their arms and go back to their normal lives, and non-war-related industries will not be affected. Hell, you have to have some way to pay for the damage.
Point 10: We are not going to enslave the Japanese people, but we ARE going to get anybody responsible for war crimes.
Point 12: After we're done sorting out who's responsible and oversee the installation of a government who can play nice, we'll pack up and leave.
Point 13: We'll say it again: we're not mucking about here - drop the gun and come out with your hands up. We're not going to wait too long.
Prime Minister Suzuki's response to the Declaration was mokusatsu, or "treat with silent contempt".
It's very simple in a strategic sense. You've got a gun pointed at the other guy's head, and he spits on you and waves his knife about. He doesn't need to say anything to say, "Yeah? So what the f*** are you going to do about it?".
In light of that, do you think bombing a deserted island was going to put the fear of God, Shinto or whatever they pray to into them? Besides, the Americans didn't have all that many bombs to spare to provide a harmless lightshow.
It comes down to this: the Allies had no obligation whatsoever to the Japanese people - that job was for the Japanese government. As Patton said a year prior to the bombing: "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country". Again, the point that innocent civilians were killed is invalidated by the fact that these civilians were in training for war, making them combatants. The Allies' imperative was to win the war with as few losses as posssible. Call it calculating, call it callous, but that's simply the conduct of war.
And it's not as if the Japanese were unaware of the equation either. As already seen on Iwo Jima and the othe outer islands, the Japanese attitude was to trade their troops' lives with as many Allied lives as they could get. The only way to take the fight out of such a ruthless opponent is to be even more ruthless than him.
After the bombs, I'd wager that Hirohito and Suzuki were thinking, "Holy sh!t! We're down 140,000 to zero!", and decided that the odds were a bit too rich for their blood. As far as the Allies were concerned, job done.
All the signs are there - the Japs were begging to be dragged all the way downtown. I for one am glad somebody had the balls to do it. -
Rolex, the Germans simply cannot be used as a comparison for the Japanese. Yes, most Germans were not aware of places like Auschwitz during the war, but once they found out about it they went out of their way to make sure it never happened again. And yeah, they break out in a rash when somebody mentions Nazi - I had an unpleasant German classmate I loved to antagonise that way, but that's another story.Originally posted by ilovemyrolex:They really have a different degree of National Pride. In their eyes, the allies are going to invade them and rape all their women. They were probably subjected to intensive propaganda. What would you do if you're in their shoes?
It's easy for us to put them into groups (e.g Japanese) and see them as such. But each of us is an individual, each a human being.
In fact, during my German trip, I learnt that most Germans did not know the truth that was happening in concentration camps due to the propaganda efforts of Nazis. And many today still equate the Germans to Nazis. Incredible!
On the other hand, to this day, history books in Japanese schools describe WW2 like an excursion through Asia. Also, unless something's changed recently, Japan has never apologised to the countries she raped.
No, none, zero, zip comparison at all. -
Think this one through. If they bombed Tokyo, who would be left in charge? The military. Yes, the same military that was at the time preparing for kamikaze attacks (which were their idea, not the civilian government's, by the way).Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If they have to use a nuclear bomb to stop the war, why not bomb Tokyo right on top of the palace? -
Whoever told you that?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:The dropping of the atomic bomb was against all the rules of war. Both cities were not legitimate military targets and the killing was indiscriminate.
The Imperial Army Headquarters had been in Hiroshima since 1894, moved there during the Sino-Japanese War, and following that a whole lot of military facilities were moved there because Hiroshima was the army and navy dispatch point for all of Japan's later wars.
Nagasaki contained two arms factories, a steel works and the Mitsubishi shipyards, which were dedicated to building warships during the war. Some of the Pearl harbour torpedos came from Nagasaki's arms factories. -
The one thing that really cracks me up is this remark made by Hirohito in his announcement to the Japanese people that he had accepted the Potsdam declaration (14 August 1945):
We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire toward the emancipation of East Asia.
What a fricking load of bollocks! Is there some nuance of Japanese that confuses "emancipated" with "conquered, pillaged and raped", and "cooperated" with "bent over and racked hard"?
This is what I'm talking about. I'll admit that I admire some of Hirohito's work as a marine biologist, but ultimately he's still the creep who's responsible for the Japanese people not coming to terms with what they did, even though 60 years have passed. -
Yes, the arms factories are legitimate targets, not the cities. A couple of arms factories and military headquarters do not justify eliminating entire cities. The real reason for targeting Hiroshima is that the city was not damaged much by earlier raids and the Americans wanted to see the effect of this new bomb on a city. Nagasaki was bombed to test out an A-bomb with a different design. They let the Japanese Emperor go although he was just as guilty of war crimes merely because it would be easier to administer post-war Japan with a puppet emperor.Originally posted by Gedanken:Whoever told you that?
The Imperial Army Headquarters had been in Hiroshima since 1894, moved there during the Sino-Japanese War, and following that a whole lot of military facilities were moved there because Hiroshima was the army and navy dispatch point for all of Japan's later wars.
Nagasaki contained two arms factories, a steel works and the Mitsubishi shipyards, which were dedicated to building warships during the war. Some of the Pearl harbour torpedos came from Nagasaki's arms factories.
Politics is full of hypocrisy. -
the explosion was so nice...Originally posted by kops21:Estimated 140,000 people are believed to have died in Hiroshima. 80,000 in Nagasaki.
Is it necessary to drop the atomic bombs to force the Japanese to surrender
Or was the Bomb was an announcement to the World on American superiority 
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too bad you weren't there to die in it..Originally posted by ceecookie:the explosion was so nice...
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the theory is they could drop the bomb somewhere isolated in Japan to show the awesome power. But Truman wanted to have a demostration..since he spent a lot of cash on it. Also Hiroshima was a low priority target..a sleepy town even though it houses the manufacturing facilities of the army. It was number 5 on the hit list I think.