Singaporeans. Educated but Uncultured?
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foreigners = Westerners?Originally posted by Kuali Baba:1) Of course not. Neither is a white man who does that in, say, Japan. Again it's about 'doing as the Romans do in Rome'. And for that one needs to read up.
2) You say we should 'be proud of who we are', but I'm interested to hear you describe this identity we have...what is it? I won't be surprised if a foreigner says we're 'a pampered, apathetic bunch of people who don't know how to conduct themselves in other countries...and couldn't care less.' -
Nope. By foreigners I mean people in any other country.Originally posted by Gazelle:foreigners = Westerners? -
care to tell us from which country?Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Nope. By foreigners I mean people in any other country. -
China, Japan, Australia, Maldives, Thailand, USA, etc.Originally posted by Gazelle:care to tell us from which country?
I've witnessed atrocious behaviour by other Singaporeans in these places. -
You mean you have never witness Chinese, Japanese, Australian, Maldivian Thai and American misbehaving outside their country?Originally posted by Kuali Baba:China, Japan, Australia, Maldives, Thailand, USA, etc.
I've witnessed atrocious behaviour by other Singaporeans in these places.
Personally I think you are setting double standard in your judgement and somehow reminds me of how SIA stewardess used to provide better treatment and services to angmoh than asians. -
I have. But I've never encountered them berating their hosts, their lifestyle and their standard of living as openly as I've seen some of us do.Originally posted by Gazelle:You mean you have never witness Chinese, Japanese, Australian, Maldivian Thai and American misbehaving outside their country?
Personally I think you are setting double standard in your judgement and somehow reminds me of how SIA stewardess used to provide better treatment and services to angmoh than asians. -
have you ever question yourself if you have seen enough of the world to make the above statement?Originally posted by Kuali Baba:I have. But I've never encountered them berating their hosts, their lifestyle and their standard of living as openly as I've seen some of us do. -
I may not have travelled the world, but the experiences of fellow forum members here and in other (foreign based) boards and my elders makes up for it.Originally posted by Gazelle:have you ever question yourself if you have seen enough of the world to make the above statement?
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it sounds more like Singaporeans criticizing Singaporeans to me.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:I may not have travelled the world, but the experiences of fellow forum members here and in other (foreign based) boards and my elders makes up for it.
And also how does a foreigner tells the difference, between a Singapore chinese vs. chinese from Taiwan, thailand, malaysia, china, HK etc..? -
singaporeans are uncultured because of their legacy and roots.
their forefather are coolies and uneducated, and illiterate, so they bring with them very low level of culture to their new home. so when they raise their offsprings until this generation, they impart very little that is cultural, educated and refined. how many read books, recite phrases and practise calligraphy? very very few, i fear. they are descendants of peasants, farmers, lowskilled worker, manual workers... the lowest level in the chinese society that strike rich in a new land. such is the legacy of many chinese singaporeans. -
I am sorry but I have to disagree. You cannot blame everything on legacy and roots...our forefathers may have been uneducated etc... but we have had so many years to grow up... as a person thinks so he becomes. Because of the me me me mentality in Singapore and the fact that people do not bother to get better knowledge about things is why they remain uncultured. Having a degree does not mean that one is cultured, and the converse is true, not having a degree does not make a person uncultured.Originally posted by curio t:singaporeans are uncultured because of their legacy and roots.
their forefather are coolies and uneducated, and illiterate, so they bring with them very low level of culture to their new home. so when they raise their offsprings until this generation, they impart very little that is cultural, educated and refined. how many read books, recite phrases and practise calligraphy? very very few, i fear. they are descendants of peasants, farmers, lowskilled worker, manual workers... the lowest level in the chinese society that strike rich in a new land. such is the legacy of many chinese singaporeans.
Reading books, caligraphy etc do not make a person cultured.
Its not how you start out, but what you do with your life and how you develop your character and your manners that determines whether you are cultured or not. Money, books, education, etc have nothing to do with it. Culture is about appreciating where you have come from and developing yourself from there.
Being cultured is all about how you carry yourself and not what you do, reading, calligraphy, listening to classical music, going to the opera are all superficial things, being a cultured person has to come from the inside. -
Some "higher" class Singaporeans just choose to forget that not so long ago, Singapore was just a little kampong. To be exactly, it is only 40+ years ago.Originally posted by curio t:singaporeans are uncultured because of their legacy and roots.
their forefather are coolies and uneducated, and illiterate, so they bring with them very low level of culture to their new home. so when they raise their offsprings until this generation, they impart very little that is cultural, educated and refined. how many read books, recite phrases and practise calligraphy? very very few, i fear. they are descendants of peasants, farmers, lowskilled worker, manual workers... the lowest level in the chinese society that strike rich in a new land. such is the legacy of many chinese singaporeans.
And just because they have been through proper education and exposed to western culture, they think they are more superior and have the right to criticize the traditional singaporeans.
Just want to remind these "high class" dude, that dont keep biting the hands that help to build this country. without those ah ter ah kow, do you think Singapore can prosperous to what we are today?
what a shame I must say. -
Chinese being chinese only cares about making money and more money. and that has been a culture of the chinese for the past few thousand years. And fortunately that is also the reason why singapore prosperous so fast in the last 40 years.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I am sorry but I have to disagree. You cannot blame everything on legacy and roots...our forefathers may have been uneducated etc... but we have had so many years to grow up... as a person thinks so he becomes. Because of the me me me mentality in Singapore and the fact that people do not bother to get better knowledge about things is why they remain uncultured. Having a degree does not mean that one is cultured, and the converse is true, not having a degree does not make a person uncultured.
Reading books, caligraphy etc do not make a person cultured.
Its not how you start out, but what you do with your life and how you develop your character and your manners that determines whether you are cultured or not. Money, books, education, etc have nothing to do with it. Culture is about appreciating where you have come from and developing yourself from there.
Being cultured is all about how you carry yourself and not what you do, reading, calligraphy, listening to classical music, going to the opera are all superficial things, being a cultured person has to come from the inside.
You cant expect the mee moh man in the hawker center to carry himself like a Sir Dude of England isnt it? -
you miss the point. A mee moh man can have culture, it is who the person is on the inside. You don't have to behave like Sir Dude of England to have culture. There is nothing wrong with making money either. Neither is there anything wrong with the "higher class" Singaporean. They got there through hard work too. It does not matter where you are in life or your standing in society, culture comes from within. IMHO you have to loose the chip on your shoulder.Originally posted by Gazelle:Chinese being chinese only cares about making money and more money. and that has been a culture of the chinese for the past few thousand years. And fortunately that is also the reason why singapore prosperous so fast in the last 40 years.
You cant expect the mee moh man in the hawker center to carry himself like a Sir Dude of England isnt it? -
I've had no problems with that overseas.Usually they can identify us when we speak in English ( for those of us who actually speak fluent English, that is.)Originally posted by Gazelle:it sounds more like Singaporeans criticizing Singaporeans to me.
And also how does a foreigner tells the difference, between a Singapore chinese vs. chinese from Taiwan, thailand, malaysia, china, HK etc..? -
The point here is that you cant expect to transform country culturally within a short span of 40 years. A mee pok man can be cultured, but to him being cultured is $$ and spend his sat night at KTVs.Originally posted by breytonhartge:you miss the point. A mee moh man can have culture, it is who the person is on the inside. You don't have to behave like Sir Dude of England to have culture. There is nothing wrong with making money either. Neither is there anything wrong with the "higher class" Singaporean. They got there through hard work too. It does not matter where you are in life or your standing in society, culture comes from within. IMHO you have to loose the chip on your shoulder.
IMHO you have to learn to live and let live. -
you still miss the pointOriginally posted by Gazelle:The point here is that you cant expect to transform country culturally within a short span of 40 years. A mee pok man can be cultured, but to him being cultured is $$ and spend his sat night at KTVs.
IMHO you have to learn to live and let live. -
Back to the topic!
Gazelle, you still haven't answered my question: You say we should 'be proud of who we are', but I'm interested to hear you describe this identity we have...what is it?
I don't deny that foreigners misbehave themselves in other countries, even in othe 'white' societies. After all, Bill Clinton and his travelling company made Jamie Oliver change the menu upon their arrival at the restaurant (when they had agreed on another weeks ago and the restaurant had already prepared it). And then we have criminals but it's easier for us to think they're a tiny minority among all peoples (unless that country has a notriety for criminal activity, like Colombia).
But isn't there something very wrong when your seniors tell you, when you're a visitor, NEVER to admit that you're Singaporean (unless you know how to conduct yourself)? That's because there's a significant number of us who make a right embarrassment of themselves on the international scene. -
I am proud of Singapore history and I am proud of my parents and grandparents who have help to build this country. I am proud that my city is so damn clean and organized. I am proud that singapore road condition is so good that I feel like buying a 19" rims for my car. I am proud that if I have money in Singapore I can use it to the fullest without the fear of being kidnap. I am proud because so many foreigners are trying to be a PR and citizen on this country. I am proud that singapore have to much things in such a small country. I am proud that the culture in this country is so diversify and yet there are no racial problem. I am proud because Singaporeans are welcome in so many countries in the world and we dont even need VISA to travel to 90% of the countries in this world. I am proud that Singapore has the best airport and the airline in the world. I am proud that Singapore is country with one of the highest per capital income. I am proud that Singapore are so generous with comes to making donation...and the list will go on...Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Back to the topic!
Gazelle, you still haven't answered my question: You say we should 'be proud of who we are', but I'm interested to hear you describe this identity we have...what is it?
I don't deny that foreigners misbehave themselves in other countries, even in othe 'white' societies. After all, Bill Clinton and his travelling company made Jamie Oliver change the menu upon their arrival at the restaurant (when they had agreed on another weeks ago and the restaurant had already prepared it). And then we have criminals but it's easier for us to think they're a tiny minority among all peoples (unless that country has a notriety for criminal activity, like Colombia).
But isn't there something very wrong when your seniors tell you, when you're a visitor, NEVER to admit that you're Singaporean (unless you know how to conduct yourself)? That's because there's a significant number of us who make a right embarrassment of themselves on the international scene.
Why are you asking such a dumb questions? You not a Singaporean? -
Argument is so one-sided I could build a fence with all the leftover from my barn doors.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am proud of Singapore history and I am proud of my parents and grandparents who have help to build this country. I am proud that my city is so damn clean and organized. I am proud that singapore road condition is so good that I feel like buying a 19" rims for my car. I am proud that if I have money in Singapore I can use it to the fullest without the fear of being kidnap. I am proud because so many foreigners are trying to be a PR and citizen on this country. I am proud that singapore have to much things in such a small country. I am proud that the culture in this country is so diversify and yet there are no racial problem. I am proud because Singaporeans are welcome in so many countries in the world and we dont even need VISA to travel to 90% of the countries in this world. I am proud that Singapore has the best airport and the airline in the world. I am proud that Singapore is country with one of the highest per capital income. I am proud that Singapore are so generous with comes to making donation...and the list will go on...
Why are you asking such a dumb questions? You not a Singaporean?
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(Ignoring the adjective 'dumb') Okay, now the attempt has been made, but it's not right. You've brought up achievements (we can be proud of these, though there are a few debatable ones...but I won't go there). But it doesn't address why you say we shouldn't try to behave respectfully towards our guests and hosts from other countries. We ought to be ashamed that Singaporeans have gained a notriety for being unable to conduct ourselves in the presence of other people, and the disparity with the scale of those achievements makes it look even worse.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am proud of Singapore history and I am proud of my parents and grandparents who have help to build this country. I am proud that my city is so damn clean and organized. I am proud that singapore road condition is so good that I feel like buying a 19" rims for my car. I am proud that if I have money in Singapore I can use it to the fullest without the fear of being kidnap. I am proud because so many foreigners are trying to be a PR and citizen on this country. I am proud that singapore have to much things in such a small country. I am proud that the culture in this country is so diversify and yet there are no racial problem. I am proud because Singaporeans are welcome in so many countries in the world and we dont even need VISA to travel to 90% of the countries in this world. I am proud that Singapore has the best airport and the airline in the world. I am proud that Singapore is country with one of the highest per capital income. I am proud that Singapore are so generous with comes to making donation...and the list will go on...
Why are you asking such a dumb questions? You not a Singaporean? -
Yeah, talking is easy and it is free. Maybe you should try building one first and then come and talk about it.Originally posted by Global Freedom Solutions:Argument is so one-sided I could build a fence with all the leftover from my barn doors. -
Yeah please don't bump into my barn when you talk..cuz the way you walk the talk is like a random permutation of a confused mind.Originally posted by Gazelle:Yeah, talking is easy and it is free. Maybe you should try building one first and then come and talk about it.
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Kuali, I suspect (from your nick) that you are borned into a neither here nor there race and family and you are using this excuse to talk about how Singapore chinese in general are behaving. If you want to criticize CHINESE please just make it clear and simple, dont need to use Singapore (as a country) as an excuse.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:(Ignoring the adjective 'dumb') Okay, now the attempt has been made, but it's not right. You've brought up achievements (we can be proud of these, though there are a few debatable ones...but I won't go there). But it doesn't address why you say we shouldn't try to behave respectfully towards our guests and hosts from other countries. We ought to be ashamed that Singaporeans have gained a notriety for being unable to conduct ourselves in the presence of other people, and the disparity with the scale of those achievements makes it look even worse.
You were saying that your causacian friends can tell the difference between chinese from different asian countries. let me tell you, if they can really tell the difference, you wont be seeing anymore angmoh hanging out at orchard tower picking up ugly Asian prostitutes. Ang Moh know nuts about telling the difference so do try to BS here. some might even think that Singapore is part of china.
I am proud of my country, and I am proud to be Singaporeans. Yes, we might not have the manners like the Sir Dude of England, so what. Neither do the taiwanese, the 1.4 billion chinese in China. -
I have met a small number of European (of white and African descent) friends who thought Singapore is in China, but most of them know their Geography.
My criticism isn't directed at those of Chinese descent (and as my title says, I'm a baba). Remember the guy who smashed the hotel's crockery as I described some posts ago? He was Singaporean of Indian descent. And the tour groups I'd been with were mixed...sometimes the behaviour of the other people in the group made me want to cover my head with a paper bag.Originally posted by Gazelle:Kuali, I suspect (from your nick) that you are borned into a neither here nor there race and family and you are using this excuse to talk about how Singapore chinese in general are behaving. If you want to criticize CHINESE please just make it clear and simple, dont need to use Singapore (as a country) as an excuse.
You were saying that your causacian friends can tell the difference between chinese from different asian countries. let me tell you, if they can really tell the difference, you wont be seeing anymore angmoh hanging out at orchard tower picking up ugly Asian prostitutes. Ang Moh know nuts about telling the difference so do try to BS here. some might even think that Singapore is part of china.
I am proud of my country, and I am proud to be Singaporeans. Yes, we might not have the manners like the Sir Dude of England, so what. Neither do the taiwanese, the 1.4 billion chinese in China.