Paid Fine and returns home for not reserving NS
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I suppose people here don't understand the calling of a dream because they've been stuck with the mud that u call society in singapore, that any that sort of understanding for such emotions are gone.Originally posted by Wanda:It was his choice to stay away from his parents, which, IMHO, cannot be compared with serving NS out of a sense of national duty as a male citizen, so don't expect extra sympathy points for that. There are different ways to look at it, one of which is - he would even choose to stay away from his beloved parents for his entire lifetime over sacrificing 2.5 yrs of his life to serve NS (something nobody likes but all would agree is necessary). Very filial son.
hey im pursueing my dreams too. only difference is i dun need to return and serve, so does that make me selfish and unfilial too? or because i dun need to serve, i am thankfully not included in the list of insults?
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Humour me then. How do you define a "cultured" person? Must be musically literate?Originally posted by HENG@:unless of course, they happen to actually be so.
P.S. OK, I'm uncultured AND petty too.
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no no no. honestly i don't listen to classical music myself.Originally posted by av98m:Humour me then. How do you define a "cultured" person? Must be musically literate?
P.S. OK, I'm uncultured AND petty too.
but a cultured person is one who gives respect where its due. I respect him for daring to chase his dreams and walk the unconventional path others don't dare tread. Maybe the worlds best musician we will never know is the small-time pianist who is an insurance agent by day and plays in some small pub in clarke quay by night, because so many years ago he decided to do what everyone else was doing and go back home to serve NS.
Melvyn Tan did something I respect immensely. He broke out of the traditional Singapore mould of "don't be stupid, u can't make a living out of/become world famous in sports/music/culture/arts" He is my hero, not because he is a musician, but because he did what I only wish more people have the guts to do. He showed those of us who wish to pursue our dreams that there IS hope that just because u have the ill fortune of being born in singapore, it doesn't mean you have to kill your dreams, that u're doomed to a life of nothingness, of unfulfillment. He showed us that it is still possible to dream, to pursue your dream, and to make it ultimately, even tho being born a singaporean is a handicap like having both your hands tied behind your back in a prizefight.
Above all, he wanted to return to singapore, because although he has been a brith citizen for so many years, he still feels indebted to a homeland which has done nothing but offer obstacles to his dreams since day one, to help nuture the arts and culture society in singapore, knowing full well that, however small a chance, he might still end up in jail. But he didn't say, "no i'll just be smart and not go home at all" he took that chance. Greater still, he took that chance that singaporeans were willing to be helped in the way he offers. And in reutrn, what do we do? We show him hostility. we show him how petty we are that he didn't get "punished enough". We show him how small minded we are. That is absolutely horrible, and uncultured. Its not like the courts didn't make a judgement. A man of the arts, almost 50. What do u want? Send him to jail? send him to DB? make him serve NS? Even if many of u have served, why can't u be gracious? Not everyone has to conform to your norm, not everyone has to live life the way u live it. Baying for his blood, hurling insults at a man like him for doing what he did, as tho he was the most horrible of serial-rapist-killers, THATs what is nekulturny. -
Thanks for the reply. I do not agree 100% with what you said, but you make some good points, I'll go chew over them.
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thank youOriginally posted by av98m:Thanks for the reply. I do not agree 100% with what you said, but you make some good points, I'll go chew over them.
btw so what do u listen to?
personally I like a wide range of music, but the metal/rock/punk i listen to are bands or artistes like Korn, Marilyn Manson, NIN, Rage Against the Machine, a bit of Slipknot, Drowning Pool, Disturbed, Kaiser Chiefs, The Killers, and many more besides.
Btw heard of this band called Union Underground? Seems like nobody's really heard of them. They had this really great song called "South Texas Deathride". Rawks. -
I actually listen to a bit of everything (yes, even a very tiny sample of classical music).
Never listened to union underground, but have listened to the other bands you listed.
Give Corrosion of Conformity a try, they're a pretty obscure band, even in their home country (US). Unforunately its near impossible to get their CDs in Singapore. If you shop on amazon.com regularly, give them a try. I recommend their "Live Volume". -
union underground is another obscure band in the US. can u believe it back when i actually had kazaa, i had such a hard time finding that one song? Certainly dun see their albums in HMV.Originally posted by av98m:I actually listen to a bit of everything (yes, even a very tiny sample of classical music).
Never listened to union underground, but have listened to the other bands you listed.
Give Corrosion of Conformity a try, they're a pretty obscure band, even in their home country (US). Unforunately its near impossible to get their CDs in Singapore. If you shop on amazon.com regularly, give them a try. I recommend their "Live Volume". -
Maybe I'm dumb, but I really don't see how anyone can REALLY understand what the NS men go thru' and yet call them petty or ungracious in this incident, unless....well, enough said, I think.Originally posted by HENG@:i suppose not, but that sort of comes under the "petty" category doesn't it?
And there are some people here who've served as well who can still be gracious about it.
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And you're being presumptious that all who stay here are stuck in mud, that they loose certain feelings and emotions that only you still possess? I guess you must have been speaking for yourself.Originally posted by HENG@:I suppose people here don't understand the calling of a dream because they've been stuck with the mud that u call society in singapore, that any that sort of understanding for such emotions are gone.
hey im pursueing my dreams too. only difference is i dun need to return and serve, so does that make me selfish and unfilial too? or because i dun need to serve, i am thankfully not included in the list of insults? -
Union Underground did some song for the WWE right?Originally posted by HENG@:thank you
btw so what do u listen to?
personally I like a wide range of music, but the metal/rock/punk i listen to are bands or artistes like Korn, Marilyn Manson, NIN, Rage Against the Machine, a bit of Slipknot, Drowning Pool, Disturbed, Kaiser Chiefs, The Killers, and many more besides.
Btw heard of this band called Union Underground? Seems like nobody's really heard of them. They had this really great song called "South Texas Deathride". Rawks. -
[quote]Originally posted by HENG@:
[b]
Melvyn Tan did something I respect immensely. He broke out of the traditional Singapore mould of "don't be stupid, u can't make a living out of/become world famous in sports/music/culture/arts" He is my hero, not because he is a musician, but because he did what I only wish more people have the guts to do. He showed those of us who wish to pursue our dreams that there IS hope that just because u have the ill fortune of being born in singapore, it doesn't mean you have to kill your dreams, that u're doomed to a life of nothingness, of unfulfillment. He showed us that it is still possible to dream, to pursue your dream, and to make it ultimately, even tho being born a singaporean is a handicap like having both your hands tied behind your back in a prizefight.
quote]
he come back for what. who invited him back and negotaite deal with him to come back and fine $3000. Even 60 yrs old also can go prison. What he did is a national crime? NS is vital to defence and security of us. If not we will be speaking bahasa malayu everywhere and pay bribe money, and worse naled ear squats in prison.
The real meaning of NS must never be lost. The $3000 fine has indicated the gov has lost the reason why they have NS the first place. CAn the panist fingers defend us against militants and enemies.
NSmen full tme and reservists all races everyday are providing security and defence and rescue and support and saving lives and protecting citizens alongside regulars. SAF, police scdf. worse some lost their lives in the line of duty.
Now this panist guy can claim he still belongs here with fine and his panist skill can defend singapore against terrorists and enemies.
Being born a singaporean is never a handicapped. It is a privilege. Just look at our neighbouring countries. With our asian color, how many have the chance to be born in western country with dole and benefits. This dream is in many asians born in asian.
I can clearly say, the gov has lost its meaning of national service and now offenders status and value to country image outweighs the crime commited.
Rich Parents now can say, $3000 fine is nothing, they will all take the same route. MM LKY believes in integrity, honesty and deliverance in building this nation is meaningless in today's gov of handling affairs.
The meaning of Serving NS has now become equivalent to malaysia 3 mnths NS, because the gov treat NS defaulters as tidak apa, small matter.
Want to hunt and fight terrorists and militants using who, Now pay $3000 and get off NS? who will be left? -
Well, it's the plurality of opinions that counts doesn't it.But I will not let my opinions be drowned out by all the other NSmen who have not really grown up and be real men and still cannot look beyond a person's mistake and get on with life.Originally posted by Wanda:I think...it's very difficult for many men who have gone thru' NS to be 'gracious' (to use your word) in this case bec. of the sh.t they've gone thru' in NS, plus the 20+ yrs of reservist. Knowing what some have gone thru', I will not begrudge them for being so-called 'ungracious', bearing in mind that some men have even lost limb and life while serving NS.
Wear the damned uniform like a man and not a wussy, that's all I have to say.Let NS build you and evolve you to a person who understands the plurality of men and not a parsimonious fellow.What else is there to defend if majority of society cannot approach things calmly and instead continue to blow the horn of hysteria. -
Chasing your dream does not mean that you're absolved of all your societal responsibilities.Originally posted by HENG@:I suppose people here don't understand the calling of a dream because they've been stuck with the mud that u call society in singapore, that any that sort of understanding for such emotions are gone.
hey im pursueing my dreams too. only difference is i dun need to return and serve, so does that make me selfish and unfilial too? or because i dun need to serve, i am thankfully not included in the list of insults?
If that's the case, we'll end up having a nation of 'dream chasers' who'll use their dreams as a convenient excuse.
Hell, there are thousands of guys here who've served their NS AND achieved their dreams. -
really. then what would u call those who have gone thru what everyone else has gone thru and still be able to be forgiving and accepting?Originally posted by Wanda:Maybe I'm dumb, but I really don't see how anyone can REALLY understand what the NS men go thru' and yet call them petty or ungracious in this incident, unless....well, enough said, I think. -
did they? i don't watch WWE. i wouldn't knowOriginally posted by Hellraiza:Union Underground did some song for the WWE right? -
so i guess what u and many others here feel is that only military defence is important. nevermind the arts and the cultures, even tho those are the most basic things that defines us as HUMANS. ok then.Originally posted by AF2005:[quote]Originally posted by HENG@:
[b]
Melvyn Tan did something I respect immensely. He broke out of the traditional Singapore mould of "don't be stupid, u can't make a living out of/become world famous in sports/music/culture/arts" He is my hero, not because he is a musician, but because he did what I only wish more people have the guts to do. He showed those of us who wish to pursue our dreams that there IS hope that just because u have the ill fortune of being born in singapore, it doesn't mean you have to kill your dreams, that u're doomed to a life of nothingness, of unfulfillment. He showed us that it is still possible to dream, to pursue your dream, and to make it ultimately, even tho being born a singaporean is a handicap like having both your hands tied behind your back in a prizefight.
quote]
he come back for what. who invited him back and negotaite deal with him to come back and fine $3000. Even 60 yrs old also can go prison. What he did is a national crime? NS is vital to defence and security of us. If not we will be speaking bahasa malayu everywhere and pay bribe money, and worse naled ear squats in prison.
The real meaning of NS must never be lost. The $3000 fine has indicated the gov has lost the reason why they have NS the first place. CAn the panist fingers defend us against militants and enemies.
NSmen full tme and reservists all races everyday are providing security and defence and rescue and support and saving lives and protecting citizens alongside regulars. SAF, police scdf. worse some lost their lives in the line of duty.
Now this panist guy can claim he still belongs here with fine and his panist skill can defend singapore against terrorists and enemies.
Being born a singaporean is never a handicapped. It is a privilege. Just look at our neighbouring countries. With our asian color, how many have the chance to be born in western country with dole and benefits. This dream is in many asians born in asian.
I can clearly say, the gov has lost its meaning of national service and now offenders status and value to country image outweighs the crime commited.
Rich Parents now can say, $3000 fine is nothing, they will all take the same route. MM LKY believes in integrity, honesty and deliverance in building this nation is meaningless in today's gov of handling affairs.
The meaning of Serving NS has now become equivalent to malaysia 3 mnths NS, because the gov treat NS defaulters as tidak apa, small matter.
Want to hunt and fight terrorists and militants using who, Now pay $3000 and get off NS? who will be left?
being born a singaporean is no handicap? Bull Sh|t. its everybit a handicap if u are an individual. U're deluded in thinking u're privileged. U're in essence no more than a resource for the ruling class, important resource, but disposable. A cash cow, and maybe not even. If u're a singaporean, try for a career in sports, especially sports frowned on by the govt like motorsports. or try to make a career in the arts, be a painter or a classical musician or any number of careers the govt don't deem to be "profitable" to them. See how far u get. Then u come and tell me being born singaporean is a "privilege" -
what if your dream is one where u only get once chance, one shot at it?Originally posted by Rhonda:Chasing your dream does not mean that you're absolved of all your societal responsibilities.
If that's the case, we'll end up having a nation of 'dream chasers' who'll use their dreams as a convenient excuse.
Hell, there are thousands of guys here who've served their NS AND achieved their dreams.
im sorry but in singapore the emphasis is too much on the society and not enough on the individual where it counts, and too protective of certain individuals who are not deserving of it.
So many people here making noise about one old man, when they dun care that 2 white horses have gotten away scot free with manslaughter. Incomprehensible. -
Personally, I, more than anyone else here probably, have more reasons to dislike Melvyn Tan for getting away with it lightly. Much more reasons than any one individual should have. Yet I do not begrudge him. Why? I dunno. Maybe the question many of u should really be asking deep down is WHY so many of u "kan bu kai".
Last I recall, nobody is saying all guys should not serve NS. Nobody said he did not break a law. He broke a law, he got punished by the law, all this is fact. We're saying in his case, it is quite understandable, even if its not right, but these sort of grey area topics can never be fully clear cut can it? In any case, he's gotten enough stick from the public. So why not let it go, let it rest?
The question should be, why so many of u "kan bu kai?" -
The world does not revolve around you! Lots of people, many more talented than him in various fields, had given up that one shot to perform their duty.Originally posted by HENG@:what if your dream is one where u only get once chance, one shot at it?
im sorry but in singapore the emphasis is too much on the society and not enough on the individual where it counts, and too protective of certain individuals who are not deserving of it.
So many people here making noise about one old man, when they dun care that 2 white horses have gotten away scot free with manslaughter. Incomprehensible.
Wjat you are advocating is selfish and arrogant. -
Then you should have been born in a village with no water to wash the scissors that cuts your umbilical cord, suckled by a mother too malnourished to have any milk, given water to drink that is swimming with cholera organisms and die from diarrhoea before seeing your first birthday.Originally posted by HENG@:being born a singaporean is no handicap? Bull Sh|t. its everybit a handicap if u are an individual. U're deluded in thinking u're privileged. U're in essence no more than a resource for the ruling class, important resource, but disposable. A cash cow, and maybe not even. If u're a singaporean, try for a career in sports, especially sports frowned on by the govt like motorsports. or try to make a career in the arts, be a painter or a classical musician or any number of careers the govt don't deem to be "profitable" to them. See how far u get. Then u come and tell me being born singaporean is a "privilege" -
What is this white horse manslaughter case you keep referring to?Originally posted by HENG@:So many people here making noise about one old man, when they dun care that 2 white horses have gotten away scot free with manslaughter. Incomprehensible. -
Using YOUR own line of reasoning and justification, you can simply say those ppl whom you called ungracious are not as magnanimous or educated or cultured (i lost interest and din bother to read that part u wrote) or whatever as you.Originally posted by HENG@:really. then what would u call those who have gone thru what everyone else has gone thru and still be able to be forgiving and accepting?
The way I see it - this world is made up of different people, with different upbringing, different background and different ways of thinking. Do not expect all to think like you. The world simply does not revolve around your way of thinking and behaviour...it is never about you, you and you. Accept that as a fact.
If you can't accept that, then you can also use the type of motherhood statement which YOU seem to favour that life is unfair lor, that it is unfair that you are born in a world where ppl do not think exactly as you do lor, and it is unfair to be born in this world lor. So everything is pointless (to quote you, again).
I think it's pointless to try to have a fair and objective discussion with you when you could only see your own viewpoints while at the same time claiming to view from all angles, and then quote all sorts of motherhood statements (full of holes) that are at times irrelevant to throw smoke and blur the issue. It's just pointless, period. I won't bother anymore. Have fun.Originally posted by HENG@:gosh rhon. are u thinking?
AFTER he's gotten his big break, hes gotta be wondering if he's gonna be thrown into DB for that. WHO in their right mind would wanna come back in their youth so they can spend it sitting in a cell?
There is no such thing as fair. Want to talk about fair? How about: Its not fair to be born in Singapore in the 1st place?
Lets not talk about fairness. Its pointless. In the whole scheme of the world, I reckon its fair enough. -
Oh, I just read your post, after posting my reply. And you said the same thing too! Hahaha... guess I wasn't the only one who thinks the same way.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:The world does not revolve around you! Lots of people, many more talented than him in various fields, had given up that one shot to perform their duty.
Wjat you are advocating is selfish and arrogant. -
Talking about "sacrficing" a person's musical career.....
There are thousands of Singaporean men sacrfiicing their time to do NS.
There are men who have to support their family... and cannot get by with the NS allowance. Went to work parttime, in the end always come back to camp late, kanna charge, go DB. know of this guy in N.S.
This person might not be as "world-class" as our pianist. but he is also human. why the difference in treatment.
My thot is this, if a person didn't come back to serve, if he ever come back, "mandatory" jail sentence, minimum 2 years. if he don't want to get jailed don't ever come back to singapore again. -
btw, i have nothing against our artistic singapore born male... i just want a more fair and equitable treatment.Originally posted by spencer99:Talking about "sacrficing" a person's musical career.....
There are thousands of Singaporean men sacrfiicing their time to do NS.
There are men who have to support their family... and cannot get by with the NS allowance. Went to work parttime, in the end always come back to camp late, kanna charge, go DB. know of this guy in N.S.
This person might not be as "world-class" as our pianist. but he is also human. why the difference in treatment.
My thot is this, if a person didn't come back to serve, if he ever come back, "mandatory" jail sentence, minimum 2 years. if he don't want to get jailed don't ever come back to singapore again.
I like Teo Chee Hean's comment. I hope something will be annouced in due time.