what if heaven did not exist and is made up, ever think of this question before?
since you are not supposed to question your faith and think critically, never mind this.
Hello, according to the christianity heaven is a perfect place. No more tears, dust, and the road is made of gold. Singing in heaven.
Oops, believe it or not, I ever read one book by a christian author whom he claimed Jesus brought him up to heaven . The above is just one or two things he spoke about heaven in his book.
so did anyone who passed away, went to heaven, came back to earth to tell the tale?
Who Art in Heaven: The Dwelling Place of God
What State of Mind Are You In?
God is eternal and omnipresent. He is not bound by time or space. He existed before their creation. Because heaven existed as the dwelling of God before time, it must be eternal as well. This leaves us with two considerations. If we consider heaven as a created space, it must be a space "eternally created" by the very presence of God. This concept of "eternal creation" makes no sense to our human understanding. If heaven is not a creature, then it is simply His eternal presence. In either case, heaven would be both eternal and omnipresent. If omnipresent, can we really call it a place? With this line of reasoning, it is easy to see that heaven is far different than any place comprehensible to man on earth.
Explaining heaven as a state of being eliminates the confusion between created space bound by time and created space apart from time. Such an explanation appeals to the characteristics of God, particularly His
eternal and omnipresent nature. As a state of being and not a place per se, our inheritance of heaven is understood as the fullness of communion with God. Traditionally, this is known as the beatific vision; the seeing of God.eternal and omnipresent nature. As a state of being and not a place per se, our inheritance of heaven is understood as the fullness of communion with God. Traditionally, this is known as the beatific vision; the seeing of God.
However, heaven must contain space, because it contains the glorified body of Christ (Mk. 16:19; Lk. 24:51), as well as the bodies of Enoch (Gen. 5:24), Moses (Jude 9), Elijah (2 Kings 2:9-12) and the Blessed Virgin Mary (Rev. 12:1). At the end of time, it will contain the glorified bodies of all the saints. However, its reality is not a place bound by time and space as we know it, and this is incomprehensible to us. Its spatial reality is a reality of God's glory, not a reality of the created world.
In Magisterial documents, the Church falls short of stating "where" heaven is or defining it solely as a state of being. However, the Church does describe what happens in heaven, namely, union with God and with all His angels and saints (cf. Jn. 17:20-26, Catechism, no. 1023, 1024). Though in union with God, man does not lose his distinct nature and identity (cf. Catechism, no. 1025). He remains human, but becomes fully human in Christ as intended by God. It is this perfect union with God and transformation in Christ that is most important, not arguments about whether heaven is a place or state of being.
The Magisterium does not favor one theological approach over another. It does emphasize what happens in heaven, and uses common language to help describe different characteristics of heaven. In his edict Benedictus Deus (1336 AD), Pope Benedict XII uses the term "will be in heaven" to describe the destiny of the faithful departed. "In" can refer to a place or a state of being without favoring one over the other. Most recently, Pope John Paul II stated: "Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God." While he uses the term "state," he does not qualify the term to "state of being," "state of mind" or "state of body." To further explain the concept, he quotes Catechism 1026 and explains:
The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him
and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
As St. Augustine wrote, "You made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." Heaven fulfills the desire of our hearts for God. Our lives on earth must be directed to seeking that perfect union with God that He meant for us from the beginning. When we reach that heavenly beatitude, our hearts will be filled with an intense love and joy that can only be described as God Himself.
Heaven on Earth
Many have tried to compare earthly experiences to heavenly realities. In Sacred Scripture, one of the most compelling signs of heaven's glory is marriage; that is, the union of a man and woman in a covenant of love with God (cf. Rev. 21:1-4, Gen. 1:26-27). As intended from the beginning, marriage involves a total and free sacrifice of self for love of the other in the love of God. When this love is returned by the spouse, the mutual love of both brings unspeakable joy for life and hope for the future. The ecstasies shared by the couple in their love foreshadow the ecstasies of heaven and our union with God. This is why St. Paul, when writing about marriage, could say, "this mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church" (Eph. 5:32).
In addition to marriage, the liturgies of the Church and the other sacraments foreshadow the realities of heaven's glories. This is particularly true of the celebration of Mass and the sacrament of Holy Eucharist. The liturgy of the Mass draws from the elaborate and beautiful images given to us in the Book of Revelation. In that book, St. John describes heaven and the praises of the angels and saints before God (Rev. 4-5). When we participate in the celebration of the Mass, we are mysteriously drawn to the unending praises of God in heaven. Within time, we participate in worship that is outside of time. Because the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus, our Lord and God, when we receive this sacrament, we experience the greatest physical and spiritual union with God on earth.
In this, we share in a mysterious way the union God intends for us in heaven.
Our participation in the liturgies and sacraments of the Church are nothing less than our participation in the Communion of Saints. As the saints and angels worship before God in heaven, so on earth we participate in their glorious praise of His Name. The glory given the saints in heaven is our hope as we yearn for God during our earthly exile. God has given us on earth a glimpse of heavenly realities that we may not lose heart. Let us find in our marriages, families and daily work the encouragement to keep our vision on God; a vision He calls us to in heaven's glory.
One Day in the Life of Saint in Heaven
Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness, add to the nobility of the worship that the Church offers to God here on earth, and in many ways help in a broader building up of the Church (cf: 1 Cor. 12:12-27). Once received into their heavenly home and being present to the Lord (cf. 2 Cor. 5:8), through him and with him and in him they do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5), serving God in all things and completing in their flesh what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church (cf. Col. 1:24). So by their brotherly concern is our weakness greatly helped (Lumen Gentium, 49).
By this edict which will prevail forever, with apostolic authority we declare: that according to the common arrangement of God, souls of all the saints…have been, are, and will be in heaven, in the kingdom of heaven and in celestial paradise with Christ, united in the company of the holy angels, and after the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ have seen and see the divine essence by intuitive vision, and even face to face, with no mediating creature, serving in the capacity of an object seen, but divine essence immediately revealing itself plainly, clearly, and openly, to them, and seeing thus they enjoy the same divine essence, and also that from such vision and enjoyment their souls, which now have departed, are truly blessed and they have eternal life and rest...and will continue even up to the last judgment and from then even unto eternity.
Pope Benedict XII From his edict, Benedictus Deus January 29, 1336
Questions for Reflection and Group Discussion:
Language is the most powerful symbol man uses to express himself. By use of language, other signs and symbols are explained. Yet language falls short of expressing realities we do not fully understand. Everyone experiences this. On one occasion or another, we grapple with the right words to use when describing an experience or idea. We simply do not know what to say.
Heaven is one of those realities we do not fully understand. It is not limited to time and space as we are. As a result, none of our experiences with other creatures on earth can reveal fully the nature of heaven. Nor can our languages or imaginations describe it perfectly (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9).
When describing heaven, man has traditionally taken one of two approaches. Either he describes heaven as a state of being or as a place. It seems that each approach depends on whether the person starts with the characteristics of God or the characteristics of man.
I like the last paragraph...christians start wif the characteristics of God but non-believers start wif the characteristics of man...tats why its an apple-orange argument...just like boss and subordinate...top-down approach and bottom up approach...very different...
what if heaven DO exist and its not made up? if its made up, wad do believers of heaven lose? but if its real, wad do non-believers of heaven lose? tink abt tis...
Originally posted by despondent:what if heaven DO exist and its not made up? if its made up, wad do believers of heaven lose? but if its real, wad do non-believers of heaven lose? tink abt tis...
deluded and misled for the past 2 millenniums to a lot of generations of people.
non believers do not need to fear or do anything. besides if your faith does not believe in rebirth, why is there an afterlife after one die. this life should be the last one. another obvious paradox.
Originally posted by despondent:what if heaven DO exist and its not made up? if its made up, wad do believers of heaven lose? but if its real, wad do non-believers of heaven lose? tink abt tis...
This argument can come up because Christians uses a lopsided presumption in the first place.
Ie. For Christians would say, if heaven DO exist and Christian believe, Christian can/may/will go heaven. If it is made up, then consider Christian nothing to lose also. Whereas if heaven DO exist and non-Christian did not believe, non-Christian cannot/may not/will not go heaven. If it is made up, then non-Christian nothing to lose also.
Now think again, how does a Christian know "if it is made up, Christian nothing to lose" ? (This is the trap answer which Christian propose themselves)
What if now I tell that "if it is made up, Christian will be condemn to eternal hellfire in another world" or "if it is made up, Christian will really be punished by another God from a Real religion", will you and other christians still pose such a self-deluded argument ??????
This is the well-known cyclical trap that Christians themselves are too deluded to even able to see it , less being able to admit it , or even too lazy to even bother to think about it.
Originally posted by Rooney9:deluded and misled for the past 2 millenniums to a lot of generations of people.
non believers do not need to fear or do anything. besides if your faith does not believe in rebirth, why is there an afterlife after one die. this life should be the last one. another obvious paradox.
Their argument or hypothesis always end up succumbing to people's emotions or warped logic. That's why what you said is very logical. If believers have faith in something, then they should be worried something doesn't happen according to what their faith was. If non-believers do not have the same faith, then they do not need to be worried anything will happen to them according to the believer's faith. The main problem is believers have the tendency to impose their truth as the correct truth, therefore they will never see they may be wrong (which i do not blame them) but also fail to see non-believers can also judge them back the same way.
Most of the time they act bitter, turn around and say non-believers attack them. (This is in real-life case, not forum) Most of the time act pity only. And they don't allow non-believers to be bitter or pity, what a paradox again!
Well it's still better to believe , since even if you believe and it becomes wrong , you have nothing to lose. But if you didn't believe , and Christianity was real , then your in big trouble.
Pascal's Wager.
Originally posted by flux.:Well it's still better to believe , since even if you believe and it becomes wrong , you have nothing to lose. But if you didn't believe , and Christianity was real , then your in big trouble.
Pascal's Wager.
well in that case, I might as well convert and accept all the world religion for insurance, if one is wrong, at least I still have other religions to fall back.
anyway why should non believers fear, if they dun believe it. should we worry ourselves sick when there are 300 plus religions in this world and every religion impose their preachings to you?
Originally posted by flux.:Well it's still better to believe , since even if you believe and it becomes wrong , you have nothing to lose. But if you didn't believe , and Christianity was real , then your in big trouble.
Pascal's Wager.
there are 300 plus religions in this world. so you are saying christianity is the true religion and others are all false?
Originally posted by Rooney9:well in that case, I might as well convert and accept all the world religion for insurance, if one is wrong, at least I still have other religions to fall back.
anyway why should non believers fear, if they dun believe it. should we worry ourselves sick when there are 300 plus religions in this world and every religion impose their preachings to you?
Cos THEY only blindly believe only ONE shall be correct, and it is DEFINITELY their's.
So to them, they live happily in their well constructed, comforting dream, based on THEIR BOOK, and when cannot find an answer in their book, they will tell you look into your heart. And this is when they are asked everybody's heart and judgement is different, and they will give many different answers and viewpoint. Back to square one, if there are so many judgments and viewpoints, how to believe their is only ONE and ONLY truth ???
Originally posted by BanguIzai:This argument can come up because Christians uses a lopsided presumption in the first place.
Ie. For Christians would say, if heaven DO exist and Christian believe, Christian can/may/will go heaven. If it is made up, then consider Christian nothing to lose also. Whereas if heaven DO exist and non-Christian did not believe, non-Christian cannot/may not/will not go heaven. If it is made up, then non-Christian nothing to lose also.
Now think again, how does a Christian know "if it is made up, Christian nothing to lose" ? (This is the trap answer which Christian propose themselves)
What if now I tell that "if it is made up, Christian will be condemn to eternal hellfire in another world" or "if it is made up, Christian will really be punished by another God from a Real religion", will you and other christians still pose such a self-deluded argument ??????
This is the well-known cyclical trap that Christians themselves are too deluded to even able to see it , less being able to admit it , or even too lazy to even bother to think about it.
you are spot on. karl marx put it aptly, religion is like an opiate. its blind faith to me, invoking emotions and no rational and critical thinking.
Originally posted by BanguIzai:Cos THEY only blindly believe only ONE shall be correct, and it is DEFINITELY their's.
So to them, they live happily in their well constructed, comforting dream, based on THEIR BOOK, and when cannot find an answer in their book, they will tell you look into your heart. And this is when they are asked everybody's heart and judgement is different, and they will give many different answers and viewpoint. Back to square one, if there are so many judgments and viewpoints, how to believe their is only ONE and ONLY truth ???
their book cant even get this right, earth is at least 6 billion years told, how can be created in 6 days? you cant even get a one storey built in 6 weeks, much less 6 days. they believed the earth was flat, how wrong can they be. do I need to continue?
Originally posted by Rooney9:their book cant even get this right, earth is at least 6 billion years told, how can be created in 6 days? you cant even get a one storey built in 6 weeks, much less 6 days. they believed the earth was flat, how wrong can they be. do I need to continue?
Ya lar, but let's say even you give the benefit of the doubt that it may be correct (just that we human intellectuals not there to understand it yet blah blah blah), the non-believers don't mind.
What non-believers mind is when believers use the book to tell non-believers what is right or wrong, and in times when believers are asked by non-believers what the book says about certain other issues, believers come out with some other interpretations based on their own again.
So messy and still want to claim they are one and the same. That's why I say hypocrite.
Originally posted by Rooney9:their book cant even get this right, earth is at least 6 billion years told, how can be created in 6 days? you cant even get a one storey built in 6 weeks, much less 6 days. they believed the earth was flat, how wrong can they be. do I need to continue?
It's rather better not to interpret what religions talk about their own interpretations of the world.
We should be more concern how they use it to their benefit and "bully" people into their favour when those people are not so good in their thinking also.
I want to compare it to the �語: 欺善怕惡. People who know how to think and ask back, they say you are not ready to believe or too stubborn etc. People who 傻傻 or 乖乖 or 笨笨 those type don't know how to ask much one, they like these kind of people.
I dun blame them, because it has been like this since the ancient days till this day and age despite advances in science and technologies and innovations. our ancestors do not have the benefit of the knowledge we have now.
to use god to explain for all the things in this world, esp a supernatural being, is frankly naive, simple, and harebrained. the field of geography explained how tsunamis occured when quakes in the sea generated tons and tons of energies. I would not be surprised if people 200 years ago, reckoned it was the act of god.
That's why I say as non-believers we should not be concerned how other religions want to write in their holy books , you can write the sky is pink colour or the world is created in 5-seconds we shouldn't care much. This may be due to different interpretations (due to different culture / time & space / language perception etc. etc.) or stemmed from the result when speaking to different audience.
We should just be disgusted how they use it as a TOOL to justify their actions in a secular society. And also look at our government is also smart to use it as a TOOL in achieving some of it's own agenda as and when it is need.
Originally posted by BanguIzai:That's why I say as non-believers we should not be concerned how other religions want to write in their holy books , you can write the sky is pink colour or the world is created in 5-seconds we shouldn't care much. This may be due to different interpretations (due to different culture / time & space / language perception etc. etc.) or stemmed from the result when speaking to different audience.
We should just be disgusted how they use it as a TOOL to justify their actions in a secular society. And also look at our government is also smart to use it as a TOOL in achieving some of it's own agenda as and when it is need.
yes romans used this to justify killing and imprisoning people in that era. they did in in the ancient past and they will continue using this in the future.
Originally posted by BanguIzai:It's rather better not to interpret what religions talk about their own interpretations of the world.
We should be more concern how they use it to their benefit and "bully" people into their favour when those people are not so good in their thinking also.
I want to compare it to the �語: 欺善怕惡. People who know how to think and ask back, they say you are not ready to believe or too stubborn etc. People who 傻傻 or 乖乖 or 笨笨 those type don't know how to ask much one, they like these kind of people.
hi bang and rooney..
i understand yr concern.. Heaven is meant for everyone irregardless of one's faith.. By that i mean even non christians can go heaven. it' up to God's mercy.. similarly.. if one do evil and do not repent.. they may end up in hell .. (applies to everyone including christians and catholics too!)..
so the next question.. in that case.. if everyone can go to heaven.. why believe in christianity esp catholicism? Answer: Christianity is the easiest way to Know God and by knowing God and faithfully carry out his commands and do GOOD works, one can obtain eternal life. that is forever in The company of God and His saints..
Read the lives of the saints..eg St teresa of avila, st teresa of the little Flower and all other saints.. why they long to go heaven so much.. read with an open mind. even if you are not a believer.
Catholics respect all other religions.. . we tolerate each other beliefs. we dun go ard and say "oh yr religion is bad or this or that.. . That's not the way.. rather we show by our way of life that's how we witness. of course we do talk but we prefer to show.. . that's why you see priests refuse to baptize people if they find that it may result in conflicts with the family people. They must come willingly on their basis and free form other "obstacles". Come this easter you may find abt 1000 people entering the catholic church in singapore after completing the program call RCIA or Rite of christian initiation for Adults and this happen every year. Usually baptisms is carried out on easter sat. If you are free, pop by any catholic church this on easter sat and see.. The hymns they sing are lovely and the mass is very meaningful and reverent.
God Bless!!
catholic
The teaching
Originally posted by Cerulean:When we go to heaven after we die, we will find out.
You are correct Cerulean. Lots of stories already about them being in heaven already; I hardly believe in them 'cause there is no proof on everything they're saying. So, yes, we will know when we get there. That's hoping to go to heaven when we die. :)
just to feed the trolls..bible doesnt teach everyone goes to heaven..only a limited few.so most probably, that 3 year old kidwont go to heaven.he will get to grow up in a restored earth eventually.if hes of the anointed few..he will then take on a spirit body like those of angels..
so there will never be a 3y.o kid in heaven for eternity