Let me just make a comment that Apostasy was not discussed in dept in anywhere in Sgforums. The nearest any discussion got to was not in the Islam Forum, but in Speaker's Corner.
Worst comes to worst. There is always Sgclubs's Christian corner.
Originally posted by bic_cherry:Just thought that some time spent listening to this poem might clarify things and improve the discussion efficiency here.
:).
"The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John G. Saxe (poetry reading)[link]:
Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe
Here is John Godfrey Saxe’s (1816-1887) version of Blind Men and the Elephant:
It was six men of Indostan, To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant, (Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation, Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach'd the Elephant, And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant, Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant- Is very like a spear!"The Third approach'd the animal, And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant- Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee: "What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,- "'Tis clear enough the Elephant: Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant: Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun, About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail, That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant- Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan, Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion, Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right, - And all were in the wrong!
MORAL,
So, oft in theologic wars , The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance : Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant : Not one of them has seen!
Thanks for sharing the poem. Versions of this often come up in discussions of religions, to suggest that either all are wrong or that people are entitled to their own religions as all are worshipping the same "god". This analogy actually came up earlier and I did give a challenge to readers if they can find the flaw in the analogy. No one actually came forward. But I will let the cat out.
What almost all people missed in this analogy is that there is at least ONE person who knows the truth and who is not blind, the NARRATOR himself. He knows what the elephant is and looked like, even though the others are blind. What this suggests again is that truth is OBJECTIVE, the blind men were all WRONG about their beliefs about the elephant.
Applying this analogy to the real world of discussions on religion, on what basis does anyone say that all who are religious are as blind as the blind men in the analogy?
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Let me just make a comment that Apostasy was not discussed in dept in anywhere in Sgforums. The nearest any discussion got to was not in the Islam Forum, but in Speaker's Corner.
Worst comes to worst. There is always Sgclubs's Christian corner.
IMO it is probably a wise decision not to openly discuss apostasy in Islam here. Anyway, folks who are interested can always find out from other places on the internet.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Thanks for sharing the poem. Versions of this often come up in discussions of religions, to suggest that either all are wrong or that people are entitled to their own religions as all are worshipping the same "god". This analogy actually came up earlier and I did give a challenge to readers if they can find the flaw in the analogy. No one actually came forward. But I will let the cat out.
What almost all people missed in this analogy is that there is at least ONE person who knows the truth and who is not blind, the NARRATOR himself. He knows what the elephant is and looked like, even though the others are blind. What this suggests again is that truth is OBJECTIVE, the blind men were all WRONG about their beliefs about the elephant.
Applying this analogy to the real world of discussions on religion, on what basis does anyone say that all who are religious are as blind as the blind men in the analogy?
Dear BIC, there is NO FLAW in John G Saxe's poem in so far that it represents his own qualified opinion.
Although the poem seems to refer to religious persons, I think its greater truth refers to all persons (religion is only the case example)- it could refer to a maritial relationship for example: e.g. assuming that one's husband were unfaithful simply because he arrived home late for instance- where a fact is mis-interpreted due to inherient prejudice.
" the blind men were all WRONG about their beliefs about the elephant."- clarification: each blind man was fully correct in his observation to the extent that it refered to only the part of it that they each experienced. Their error in judgement however was in assuming that what they had each experienced was the sum total of all interactions with an elephant which is obviously misplaced:this mistaken assumption was what stymied their subsequent discussion and consequently, their simple excusion drew no conclusions.
It was their lesser desire for individual presteige that failed them ultimately.
The narrator is qualified in so far as he has created a story (real/ otherwise) to illustrate his opinion about how matters of such importance ought to be handled.
Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe remains a valid reminder of inherent human fallability and its impediment to progress.
Of course our dear troll BIC do not dare blaspheme against Islam
Originally posted by laurence82:Of course our dear troll BIC do not dare blaspheme against Islam
Neither are we going to see some brave act from laurence the atheist troll anytime soon, ya? Duh...
What a scaredy cat, only dare to flame the atheists
Haha
Actually, many christians leave the religion all the time too . I know of many christians who convert to buddhism, taoism or islam.
But it's funny how when i speak to christians, they cannot accept christians leaving christianity BUT they can accept hindus leaving hinduism, muslims leaving islam and taoists leaving taoism.
Whenever i say christians also leave christiantity, christians will say "they were never real christians".
LOL. Funny. SO if i use their logic, hindus who left hinduism were not real hindus and did not really know the hindu God?
will this topic be locked too, due to trolls like BIC?
the two religions worship God. Wats so fuss about to convert to christianity. Sama sama la.
Got believe and accept God or no got god, hearts must be good. if got god, believe and accept god the got and got god, hearts no good long chong poon si kay eh. umm, dats singlish. Whether you believe and accept God,. this is secondary. Most important is the heart must be good. It is futile to believe and accept God if the hearts remain bad, black, stinky, beyond redemption. hahahahahahahahhahahaahhaha
simigod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, more topic are locked.
Might as well lock and close this Eternal Hope forum.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Actually, many christians leave the religion all the time too . I know of many christians who convert to buddhism, taoism or islam.
But it's funny how when i speak to christians, they cannot accept christians leaving christianity BUT they can accept hindus leaving hinduism, muslims leaving islam and taoists leaving taoism.
Whenever i say christians also leave christiantity, christians will say "they were never real christians".
LOL. Funny. SO if i use their logic, hindus who left hinduism were not real hindus and did not really know the hindu God?
Ya, you said it! They regard them as never real christians verifies the fact that these christians who left christianity were treated by these so called Christians very badly.
I know of many christians who speak very ill of christians who leave christianity but never never point fingers at themselves. They always never take the speck from their own eyes but take only the speck (sometimes no specks from these who left christianity) from those christians who leave christianity. REal damn bloody , hypocritically arrogant, self righteous and shallow christians these people are. Damn it!
Originally posted by bic_cherry:Dear BIC, there is NO FLAW in John G Saxe's poem in so far that it represents his own qualified opinion.
Although the poem seems to refer to religious persons, I think its greater truth refers to all persons (religion is only the case example)- it could refer to a maritial relationship for example: e.g. assuming that one's husband were unfaithful simply because he arrived home late for instance- where a fact is mis-interpreted due to inherient prejudice.
" the blind men were all WRONG about their beliefs about the elephant."- clarification: each blind man was fully correct in his observation to the extent that it refered to only the part of it that they each experienced. Their error in judgement however was in assuming that what they had each experienced was the sum total of all interactions with an elephant which is obviously misplaced:this mistaken assumption was what stymied their subsequent discussion and consequently, their simple excusion drew no conclusions.
It was their lesser desire for individual presteige that failed them ultimately.
The narrator is qualified in so far as he has created a story (real/ otherwise) to illustrate his opinion about how matters of such importance ought to be handled.
Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe remains a valid reminder of inherent human fallability and its impediment to progress.
Allow me to clarify, I agree that there is no flaw in the analogy as it is related. The flaw I was referring to was about how this analogy has often been used to say that all religions are merely having a partial truth and that ultimately it is the same "reality", bearing in mind that this forum is more of a religious theme. I don't think it is apt to apply it to the suspicision of infidelity case though.
While each blind man thought he was correct about his "observation" (though they only relied on other senses but not sight to derive at their conclusions), in reality they were objectively wrong. Even the poem at the last sentence assented to that.
The fact of the matter, as I see it, is that the blind men will NEVER get to "see" or know how the elephant really look like, even if someone with sight were to tell them or orally explain to them. They have no visual reference point at all. The blind men can also come together and discuss all they can and pool their "insights" together but it will still be a distortion of reality.
It seems then, that the moral of the story is that we each have our own personal view of things and we need to be informed by what others see and not think that our views are necessarily correct. If blind in the analogy is merely referring to our fallible human nature, I agree. But I think if we have the narrator (infallible source) telling us the truth, then we can, on the basis of what has been revealed to us, conclude that we are correct. Moreover, this also highlights the point that truth is OBJECTIVE. Because truth is objective, people can be wrong about things. Thus the idea of relativism or subjective truth is false.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Actually, many christians leave the religion all the time too . I know of many christians who convert to buddhism, taoism or islam.
But it's funny how when i speak to christians, they cannot accept christians leaving christianity BUT they can accept hindus leaving hinduism, muslims leaving islam and taoists leaving taoism.
Whenever i say christians also leave christiantity, christians will say "they were never real christians".
LOL. Funny. SO if i use their logic, hindus who left hinduism were not real hindus and did not really know the hindu God?
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19a).
The Apostle John wrote the above about the false teachers who are opponents of Christ. Thus there is a Scriptural basis for saying that those who left Christianity were never real Christians to begin with. But I also believe that it is possible for true Christians to go apostate. They tasted the goodness of God, held the faith with joy for a while, but later denied the grace of God (Hebrews 6:4-6). The Bible says that their end is worst (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Originally posted by winsomeea:the two religions worship God. Wats so fuss about to convert to christianity. Sama sama la.
Got believe and accept God or no got god, hearts must be good. if got god, believe and accept god the got and got god, hearts no good long chong poon si kay eh. umm, dats singlish. Whether you believe and accept God,. this is secondary. Most important is the heart must be good. It is futile to believe and accept God if the hearts remain bad, black, stinky, beyond redemption. hahahahahahahahhahahaahhaha
simigod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I agree that believe in God must also be accompanied by life change and good works that show a living faith. Even the letter of James state that the demons believe in God but they are beyond redemption. So the question still remains, is there a God to whom our hearts must believe in and whom we must obey?
Reads through and found more than 70 posts that are OOP.
Based on wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia
The success rate of conversion from Muslim to another religion is basically zero.
And I don't see how Singaporeans can help with the laws of Syriah Courts in Malaysia unless you intend to renounce your citizenship and move to another country.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19a).
The Apostle John wrote the above about the false teachers who are opponents of Christ. Thus there is a Scriptural basis for saying that those who left Christianity were never real Christians to begin with. But I also believe that it is possible for true Christians to go apostate. They tasted the goodness of God, held the faith with joy for a while, but later denied the grace of God (Hebrews 6:4-6). The Bible says that their end is worst (2 Peter 2:20-22)
BIC
So those hindus who left hinduism also "fell away" from the Hindu God and likewise for muslims, right?
They fell away because they didnt know their God and religion well and were not deeply rooted in their faith.
OR does that only apply for christians?
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
So those hindus who left hinduism also "fell away" from the Hindu God and likewise for muslims, right?
They fell away because they didnt know their God and religion well and were not deeply rooted in their faith.
OR does that only apply for christians?
This is a good one ! Thumbs up for asking. I am thinking about the same question, too.
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
So those hindus who left hinduism also "fell away" from the Hindu God and likewise for muslims, right?
They fell away because they didnt know their God and religion well and were not deeply rooted in their faith.
OR does that only apply for christians?
Why don't you check out what their own religious books say about those who left their faith? I am only obligated to speak about Christianity and I have told you what the Bible says.
then u shuddup about anything non christian, like atheism
Originally posted by laurence82:then u shuddup about anything non christian, like atheism
haha!
Originally posted by laurence82:then u shuddup about anything non christian, like atheism
Oooh...somebody is so touchy, uptight, upset.... in any case, why should I take any instructions from you?
I meant to say that I am not obligated to defend other religions, not that I will not speak about anything non Christian, ESPECIALLY atheism.
Concerning how Islam or Hinduism views of how they treat those who leave, Tcmc who has an "open mind" should check it out for herself.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Why don't you check out what their own religious books say about those who left their faith? I am only obligated to speak about Christianity and I have told you what the Bible says.
BIC
Last heard from my hindu and muslim frens, yes they also believe those who leave their religions did not know their Gods well enough.
Similar to christians.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Oooh...somebody is so touchy, uptight, upset.... in any case, why should I take any instructions from you?
I meant to say that I am not obligated to defend other religions, not that I will not speak about anything non Christian, ESPECIALLY atheism.
Concerning how Islam or Hinduism views of how they treat those who leave, Tcmc who has an "open mind" should check it out for herself.
yes, trolls like u do not listen to instructions
if u cant comment on non xtian stuff, but u did, u are a liar